Wednesday, October 13, 2010

Belgrade - Chicago feasibility underway

JAT Yugoslav Airlines New York office, 1980s
Jat Airways has ordered its operations department to carry out a study to determine the economic viability of operating direct flights between the Serbian capital Belgrade and Chicago in the United States. Serbia currently holds a category two rating, set by the Federal Aviation Authority in the US which forbids airlines from Serbia to operate flights to United States territory. However, both the airline’s management, the Civil Aviation Directorate, the Serbian Consulate in Chicago and the Minister for Infrastructure are certain the country’s rating will be upgraded Aater the Serbian Parliament passed a new aviation bill late on Tuesday.

On Monday, a meeting was held at the Serbian Civil Aviation Directorate to determine which steps must be taken in order for Jat to resume flights to the US after almost 2 decades. Jat Airways’ CEO, Srdjan Radovanović said, “Last year Jat Airways carried over 60.000 passengers who continued their journey to the United States via a European city”. Radovanović spent 10 days in the United States last month where he met with the Serbian Consul general in Chicago. The consulate has given strong backing for the new service to be introduced.

However, Jat currently does not have the aircraft to operate flights to the United States. As mentioned above, Serbia does not have a category 1 rating either and its staff does not have sufficient training to operate on larger aircraft. Whether these obstacles can be overcome remains to be seen. The airline’s last attempt to set up direct flights to the US in 2006 failed.

JAT Yugoslav Airlines operated its final service from the United States on May 19, 1992 from New York to Belgrade.

69 comments:

  1. Well it might seem like a fairytale but then again so did the refurbishment of the planes, hiring of younger crew, improved catering, improved service overall... Let us not forget about Clinton's visit to Belgrade yesterday which was more than successful so...
    If any CEO until now could do it, then I would bet on this one.

    However let's wait and see.

    ReplyDelete
  2. 60.000 pax divided by 2 ways divided by 365 days a year = 82 pax per day per direction. And it won't make sense for all of them to connect in Chicago either.

    JAT, really?

    ReplyDelete
  3. That is just O&D, there will be also connecting passengers from the region.
    Chicago is the number one unserved destination from Athens with about 85.000 passengers per year, if Jat could get some of thos then the route would be a total success.
    I am sure they government would be more than happy to subsidise the route just for the sake of having links to North America

    ReplyDelete
  4. Just wondering where was the JAT office located in New York?

    ReplyDelete
  5. It was somewhere on the 5th avenue.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Could they make it work with a 757? I know it would be kind of uncomfortable but they could operate a route with a stop somewhere in like Dublin or Oslo and sell tickets on that segment as well... Just like with DXB

    ReplyDelete
  7. What about working on its current routes, FRA, ZRH, MXP, ATH, IST, DXB...

    I dont think JAT will have a problem with crew, as if i remember well, 2 sets of crew were sent on B767 training preparing for the return of transatlantic operations. I think the suitable aircraft here would be either B762 or A332. But i dont see anything happening soon and nor do i see JAT just randomly opening ORD as a destination either.

    ReplyDelete
  8. What about those routes? The only one that could use some improvement is Athens, the rest are pretty much ok.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Putting the cart before the horse, as per usual.

    If the airline can't:
    - get its whole current fleet flying
    - solve its short-haul operations issues
    - wean itself from 'political' decisions
    - solve its fleet modernisation dilema
    - get back to profitability
    then it needs to use this simple checlist before creating more problems with a long-haul division!

    ReplyDelete
  10. Hajde, hajde, ne budite na kraj srca... Nije mi nick za dzabe JU500 :)

    ReplyDelete
  11. off topic:looks like JP postponed MUC-PRN to December

    ReplyDelete
  12. Banja Luka to Cleveland in 2011!!!

    ReplyDelete
  13. Doot, in Cleveland? 2011? I would like that too, but idk where you heard this haha,

    ReplyDelete
  14. This have to be a joke! There is no sense...

    ReplyDelete
  15. as i predicted 6 months ago...jat will begin servicing to north america. although this is not certain, i think that it will happen for sure. not only is jat looking at serbian diaspora but diaspora for the entire balkan region. only greeks really have direct flights to greece and can afford them accordingly (hungarians have direct flights too, but too expensive). with jat's cheap fares and belgrade's excellent connection, jat will be looking to attract everyone from the balkans...not to mention tourists as well. my guess is that the music festivals will begin to showcase themselves in america bringing more tourists, and i assume that jat will try to begin operations to croatian coastline as well, ensuring that it has an excellent set-up for croats, and north american tourists who wish to travel to croatia but for a far cheaper price than air france, alitalia, and lufthansa. i imagine that if chicago goes well, flights to new york will be started as well...sorry for cleveland though, i think chicago and nyc are the only ones jat will ever fly to again.

    ReplyDelete
  16. lol @ "belgrade's excellent connection"

    Belgrade this year went from a black-hole of aviation to a grey-hole.

    Great connection to where? Nis?

    ReplyDelete
  17. @Doot

    The fact that it went from a blackhole to a grey one shows improvement, and we had a huge and incredible improvement with ten airlines starting service to the city.
    Even before Belgrade wasn't that bad with services from Alitalia, Air France, British Airways, Turkish Airlines, Olympic, Aeroflot, Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian...

    Anyway I am happy that Jat is at least trying on their own to start flights and not to attract some US airline with which it would codeshare. Like it was said in the begging no one expected Jat to come this far yet they have managed. I am not going to be the one who is going to believe that Jat needs to be sold to some foreigners in order to be profitable, there are plenty of capable Serbs for the job!

    ReplyDelete
  18. Yes. You're right. You can buy (expensive) tickets to other cities from Belgrade.

    Belgrade is not now, nor will it ever be some kind of european hub airport.

    Why would someone fly through Belgrade when they can fly through a nice airport that has flights everywhere, all the time, not a measly 1 (expensive) flight a day to a few major destinations.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I wouldn't mind flying through BEG and then connect to SJJ, SPU or LJU as long it has a decent connection and the aircraft are safe. I personally would even pay little bit more to fly on an airline where they speak my language and where I can feel like at home than flying on some Lufthansa or Air France and dealing with annoying checks and customs.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Well when Kosovo can do that, why not Serbia.Just to point out, Kosovo has direct flights to JFK during summer months.
    I agree that this would be a profitable destination since many people from the Balkan travel to the US.With good connections JAT can manage that.And yet about hubs, I remember this summer Delta leaving about 20 Macedonians in Budapest conecting to JFK cause there was a real mess at the security check in BUD.
    Another thing they lost my bagagge in LHR.This made noone headaches cause there are tousands of lost every day.So traditional hubs as FRA, LHR, VIE, ZRH, CDG are probably more and more inconvinient to transfer so there is a need of new ones!!

    ReplyDelete
  21. Doot

    Jat has codeshare agreements with airlines so all the major destinations in Europe are served with more than one flight a day, Paris, London (in summer), Moscow, Rome...
    Belgrade can and probably will become a regional hub and my argument is supported by the pasenger number growing rapidly. Not just that but the airport itself has come under the radar of many airlines around Europe such as airBaltic, Tarom, Cimber... meaning that some airlines have far more interest in flying there then to let's say Zagreb.
    Additionally Belgrade airport is far from being a horrible transit place, the airport might not be Munich but when it comes to the clean aspect of it, it certainly beats Vienna and Frankfurt.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Realistically it will be difficult for Jat to fly to North America successfully, but it is possible.

    First of all they need to cover the entire Balkans, places like Rijeka, Split, Dubrovnik, Priština, Niš, and of course Zagreb, need dependable, regular flights, as well as good coverage of the other Balkan countries. These routes should be in place at least a year before any flights to N. America begin.

    The Balkan Diaspora is huge in Chicago, Toronto, and NYC etc. If Jat’s prices are 10-20% less than AF, KLM, Lufthansa etc. then it can work. Don’t forget that Cargo is also a factor. I import about 10 metric tones from Serbia and ex-YU countries to Toronto every year. Now I use other airlines, but this business can potentially go to Jat. I know of many other importers who could also benefit from direct flights from BEG.

    All in all, Jat has serious problems with its fleet, organization, politics, etc. that all need to be resolved before any flights to America can be considered. I also wonder if Malév and Czech Airlines weren’t successful with flights to N. America, with BUD & PRG being much bigger hubs than BEG, how can Jat succeed?

    So, the potential is there, I’m curious to see what happens ...

    ReplyDelete
  23. off topic:

    ADRIA postpone Germany – Kosovo launch till mid-Dec 10; New Dusseldorf svc
    Posted: 13 Oct 2010 12:05 AM PDT
    As per 13OCT10 GDS timetable display, ADRIA is delaying its new NONSTOP service between Germany and Kosovo. Planned launch date on 31OCT10 is now postponed till 10DEC10.
    As a result:
    eff 10DEC10 NEW 6 weekly Munich – Pristina
    eff 11DEC10 NEW 2 weekly Dusseldorf – Pristina (New route previously not mentioned on this blog, Dusseldorf is a new destination of ADRIA’s)
    eff 12DEC10 NEW 4 weekly Frankfurt – Pristina
    Schedule below:

    Dusseldorf – Pristina
    JP145 DUS1400 – 1630PRN 319 46
    JP144 PRN1050 – 1330DUS 319 46
    Munich – Pristina
    JP157 MUC0845 – 1040PRN 319 x6
    JP156 PRN0530 – 0730MUC 319 x6
    Frankfurt – Pristina
    JP115 FRA1905 – 2145PRN 319 135
    JP115 FRA1915 – 2155PRN 319 7
    JP114 PRN1535 – 1825FRA 319 135
    JP114 PRN1545 – 1835FRA 319 7
    ADRIA also operates Daily Ljubljana – Pristina with CRJ900 and Airbus A319

    ReplyDelete
  24. Has anyone noticed that Jat is already advertising 39 destinations in its 'In safe hands' ads?

    It seems that they have already added Chicago and several other destinations to its list of destinations... because when you count all of them, Jat flies from Belgrade to ONLY 31 destinations. If you add the BUS destinations they advertise (Hamburg and Hannover) and code-shares (Bucharest, Munich, and Warsaw) you get 36 destinations.

    If they can't even count where they are flying correctly, imagine how good their North America analysis is going to be.

    ReplyDelete
  25. "First of all they need to cover the entire Balkans, places like Rijeka, Split, Dubrovnik, Priština, Niš, and of course Zagreb"

    And how realistic is that, really?

    ReplyDelete
  26. I dont get it, where do you see that JAT listed chicago as one of its destinations? get your facts straight

    ReplyDelete
  27. @ Doot

    I don’t know how realistic it is, you tell me, and why? I mean there already were flights from BEG to Pula, right?

    So if someone has ‘nationalistic’ (if that’s what you’re implying) or other problems flying with Jat, where the price would be less, (as I sad in my previous post, flights to America may work if Jat’s prices are some 20% less than their competition) than on competing airlines, then that truly is ‘their’ problem. My hope is that Jat and the other ex-yu airlines can help to improve relations among the ex-yu people.

    Let’s face it, (assuming you’re not a frequent flyer) when booking a flight price is usually the biggest determining factor, to a lesser extent connections, and perceived comfort. This year I have flown Jat, AF, KLM, AC, & Virgin America, and they were all about equal in terms of comfort.

    ReplyDelete
  28. for the record i ma the anonymous that wrote that extremely long paragraph after another anonymous before me asked for the source.

    now then, it is very clear what position jat is taking. it is surely going to be privatized, no question about that anymore otherwise they wouldn't go for a fleet renovation and commence long-haul. that being said, it will become a safer airline, with better accommodation and still the same prices making it more competitive on a regional market.

    secondly, the balkan diaspora has to go through at least 1 stopover to get to their destinations and a waiting time is usually longer than 2 hours. that is very inconvenient and for all those that question why they would rather travel with jat...these are the answers: very good service will be expected (these are flights to north america, so a certain standard is necessary), easier travel route (for those living close to serbia), and cheaper tickets. all these are more than enough to give jat at least 85% capacity on flights to north america.

    and jat will soon begin flights to croatian coastal cities, it is beneficial for both croatia and serbia that this takes place (and it surely will...pula was an excellent test run that was positive). so for doot and all hte others who think politics will interfere...think again...when it comes to gaining money, both win.

    ReplyDelete
  29. The only way that I see it happen is that in the case that Turkish buys them then they would surely like to make Belgrade their Balkan gateway to the US. Let's not forget that TK doesn't offer good times and connections for anyone wishing to fly with them to NA. Now, with Jat they can get some of the market that is currently being exploited by OS, LX, LH...
    Could it be a simple coincidence that LX is adding a second daily flight after about ten years of having just a daily flight?
    Maybe Lufthansa is aware of TKs plans in the region.

    Once again, I do believe that privatisation would probably be the best thing however I think it is sad that we have to have some foreigners manage our airline when I am sure that there are ten times more qualified Serbs for the job, unfortunately we live in Serbia and that is the reality.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Do Serbian citizens need a visa for travel to the US? If so, the Diaspora surely cannot support the route on its own?

    ReplyDelete
  31. I think direct flights to the US doesn have some business potential if marketed well and if there are convenient for travellers. But many people are in some form of a frequent flyer program, something JAT will need to catch up onto. As for regurlar pax travelling between the US and Serbia, it will just make it more convenient travelling to Serbia, reducing travel time by a good 2 hours. JAT will need to make some changes to its scheduling to make regional connections possible.

    @ Peter from Sydney

    Our passports do need visas for the US, but for the past year the US have made getting visas easier for a longer period (i think 6 or 10 years).

    @ Smokiboy

    A problem with JAT serving Croatian airports is that there are big debts JAT have to Croatian airports, ex Rijeka where the records were burnt during the war.

    Also, Croatian airports are well served to German cities where they can connect to intercontinental flights via the LH network. JAT for Croatians just adds flying time, unless JAT route the flights say via ZAG, which i dont see happening.

    @ Anonymous

    Paphos will be the 39th destination. JAT flies to 33 (soon 34) cities, 3 via codeshare (MUC, OTP, WAW) and 2 via TXL as bus services (HAM and HAN). Count again :)

    ReplyDelete
  32. @JATBEGMEL

    I am also curious about the 39 destinations. What are the 33 cities they fly to, as I also counted and only get 31.

    As for the codeshare and bus services... the ad says it's that we are in safe hands with Jat's pilots. Codeshare destinations and bus transfers are not operated by Jat pilots... so a very misleading ad.

    ReplyDelete
  33. @ anonymous

    1. AMS x7
    2. ATH x3
    3. VIE x14
    4. BEG -hub
    5. TXL x4
    6. BRU x2
    7. GOT x2
    8. DUS x5
    9. DXB x3
    10. IST x4
    11. COP x4
    12. LCA x4
    13. LHR x9
    14. LJU x6
    15. MLA x2
    16. MXP x4
    17. MIR x1
    18. SVO x7
    19. CDG x11
    20. TGD x21
    21. FCO x5
    22. SJJ x7
    23. SKP x11
    24. SKG x3
    25. ARN x5
    26. TLV x2
    27. TIV x14
    28. TIP x2
    29. TRS x3
    30. TUN x1
    31. FRA x7
    32. ZRH x8
    33. STR x3
    and 34. PFO

    ps: the frequencies to some destinations is just a rough stab in the dark.

    As for the bus services, maybe JAT pilots drive the buses hahaha maybe its an ATR72 speeding down the autobahn :p jokes aside, its not exactly totally misleading. Its a minor detail to me. The main thing there is that they want to put forward that flying with JAT means you will be flown by excellent pilots. Which i agree, great pilots.

    ReplyDelete
  34. @JATBEGMEL
    Yeap, but some of these are seasonal... + 3 in codeshare + 2 bus = so 39 summer destinations ;)
    Shush, maybe ORD will become 40th destination, only God knows that :))))

    ReplyDelete
  35. @ JATBEGMEL

    I can see that for Croatians potentially flying to America from BEG would add some extra flying time, perhaps an hour or two, but if the price is right ...

    I just noticed some news reports in the Serbian media that Jat has no plans to fly to America in 2011, maybe from 2012. Who knows ...

    If Jat is bought by Turkish, or any other big airline, I fear that they and BEG will just become a feeder for Turkish and IST. If Jat is privatized, domestically (by people who care and know about the airline industry), I think that would be a better option.

    Does anyone know more about the legal action against/by Jat with the other ex-yu republics? any links?

    ReplyDelete
  36. JAT DUGUJE NOVAC EMIRATIMA?

    Danas sam u jednoj turistickoj agenciji, koja prodaje JAT-ove karte, da rezevisem let iz Melburna za Beograd (Jat i Emirati). Nemaju cene iako je vecina aviokompanija jos u septembru izbacila predsezonske cene za leto 2011. Rekose kao da JAT duguje pare Emiratima, pa ne znaju sta ce biti posle marta sa interlajn dogovorom sa Emiratima. Da li neko zna vise o ovome?

    ReplyDelete
  37. @ Anonymous

    Why would JAT owe Emiriates anything? If JAT owed anything in the UAE it would be to Dnata/Dubai Airport.

    @ Smokiboy

    JAT would need to offer one hell of a low price to attract Croatian passengers to fly via BEG. Would be a different story if the flights operated via ZAG, which i dont see happening. Croatians would loose a good 2 hours going via BEG, first overflying ZAG, transit in BEG, then the return BEG-ZAG, which route doesnt exist at the moment. There is only a study on profitability going on and JAT hasnt said it was going to start the route, just, they are looking to see how profitable the route would be. The only problems JAT have is with Croatian airports and unpayed fees.

    @ JU500

    I left out seasonal routes. Notice how POW for example wasnt on the list ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  38. the following flts are the ideal connections ex BEG to ORD:

    0645 BEG 0845 FRA LH 3409
    1040 FRA 1240 ORD LH 0430

    0940 BEG 1135 ZRH LX 1413
    1255 ZRH 1535 ORD LX 0008

    1300 BEG 1435 MUC LH 3401
    1540 MUC 1820 ORD LH 0434

    Return leg:

    2015 ORD 1055 ZRH LX 0009
    1220 ZRH 1400 BEG LX 1416

    2145 ORD 1230 MUC LH 0435
    1500 MUC 1625 BEG LH 3402

    with UA/LH codeshares flight even more possibilites to connect FRA and MUC
    the new LX morning/evening connections to BEG are the ideal flights to connect long haul flights in ZRH during midday and evening hours

    ReplyDelete
  39. It has been confirmed that JAT will travel to "major American cities" ie: Chicago and NYC starting May 2012 according to the Serbian Minister of Air and Travel. This makes North American travel interesting because Emirates will now have competition, and it might leave them with only the Australia route as profitable. All JAT needs is flights to Canada and possibly China and that should be enough for the next 50 years ;)

    http://www.isria.com/pages/16_October_2010_95.php

    ReplyDelete
  40. Realistically speaking JAT will never get its house in order before they can expand. JAT had their glory days in the 80's and 90's as it was reported on this website before all our home countries went their own ways. Olympic had restructured its operations as a regional european carrier focusing on point to point european cities with other hubs and connecting flights in Europe, or Middle East will lead connecting flights to Aust, North America or other nations. JAT needs to renew its fleet remove the 733 and be replaced with 737NG or A319's. What JAT needs to do is focus on the EX YU routes, consolidate and maximise its network to its potential. For JAT to fly to per say ORD, JFK, EWR, YYZ, YUL would not work' they would bleed money like no tomorrow like Olympic Air and Malev did. Utilise the Codeshare deals with LH, TK, UA, EK, EY, QF, BA, AF, SU and or other carriers. It will work. But in my view - if Air Canada or Delta launched seasonal operations to BEG, ZAG or LJU - it may make sense. As for my country Macedonia has a long way to go.

    ReplyDelete
  41. @Nick-Sydney

    Olympic Air does not bleed money, you mean Olympic Airways. That airline was heavily laden with illegal political operations i.e. free fares etc. On routes to North America OA had massive load factors and made limited profits, reasons for their closure were due to the privatization of the group. You can't compare Jat with Olympic Air they are like night and day nowdays, and just to note OA has a much larger market in North America than Jat ever has or ever will have.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Olympic Air (as well as any other Greek long-haul operations) cost too much money. Malev also had expensive tickets that were a little less than Lufthansa, Air France, and KLM. The low-quality service could not bring people to those flights even if it was cheaper. With JAT being privatized by 2012 by Turkish most likely, the company should be able to have at least a good service, and it will surely expand flights to Croatia if they do get North American operations underway. I honestly think that this will happen...maybe not in May, but definitely in 2012.

    ReplyDelete
  43. @SerbianSausage
    Olympic Air has never served long haul flights. Olympic Airways/Airlines did infact operate all long haul operations up untill September 30, 2009. Olympic Airlines was quite cheap on their services to ATH from JFK, YYZ, YUL and JNB, compared to other carriers on the same routes they were the better choice at most stages, including aircraft preference.

    Just like the Greek populance of the US and Canada would take OA over anyother carrier I think most Serbian's in the same situation would take Jat.

    ReplyDelete
  44. @AirKyoro

    Not only that, but Bosnians, Croatians, Macedonians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Romanians, and maybe even Albanians would prefer JAT to other airlines. Faster flights to their destinations, cheaper tickets, and more comfortable environment (they all pretty much speak the same language). So JAT can really rely on many Balkan countries for service.

    ReplyDelete
  45. @ SerbianSausage

    I can agree with some of what you are saying, but "they all pretty much speak the same language" ??? C'mon man

    ReplyDelete
  46. @Smokiboy

    Listen, I'm no pro-Yugoslav and what not...I'm Serbian. But what I'm trying to say is that we in a way each have some cultural brotherly ties to one another...and that happens to be our history and language. I don't see translations when Croats speak, or Bosnians speak, or even when Montenegrins speak. And I can even understand a good amount of Slovenian and Macedonian and Bulgarian. So in a way, I consider we all speak the Slavic language...even Russians, Poles, and Ukrainians can be understood. To me, the languages may be different on paper, but I consider all Slavs as brothers. And that's where I end my point.

    ReplyDelete
  47. @SerbianSausage
    You are 100% correct mate, all Slavic people can be understood to a certain degree, epsecially since Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian and Macedonian are Southern Slavs

    ReplyDelete
  48. Thank you last Anonymous. And that's not even the big asset. The cheap tickets and adequate service are what will be attracting people. I mean JAT makes one of the best foods in the airline industry (no one can dispute that at all), It's cabin crew are one of the friendliest there is, and all they really need is some in-flight entertainment like tv's on each seat to get at least 70% of people to fly with them. Don't forget that there will be a company that will be willing to invest into the airline, and with that comes enhanced service. Who knows, anything can happen...

    ReplyDelete
  49. @SerbianSausage
    That was me the anon sorry I forgot to add my name. That is true about the flight crew and meals, the same was said to Olympic from the mid 2000's onwards the new Olympic has fantastic hospitable crew and wonderful Greek food, like JAT but a little more professional with newer aircraft and a larger fleet. I think Jat and Olympic have massive markets to cater for with their great product. In the long haul market that is.

    ReplyDelete
  50. @AirKoryo

    I absolutely agree. This is a way to get into the American market. And the entire Balkan region can gain from this. From Belgrade people can travel anywhere...the city itself is famous and well-known so people won't be traveling to a relatively unknown place. Countries like Croatia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, and Greece could use this to promote themselves and attract people to their tourist hotspots from Belgrade and etc. So you are absolutely right...there is a large market for JAT and Olympic.

    ReplyDelete
  51. @SerbianSausage
    In the 1980's did any American airline operate to Belgrade just curious I do remember the IL-62M from Air Koryo's CAAK devision used to fly Pyongyang Sunan to Belgrade!

    Athens has always had many US carriers flying to Athens for up to 35 years and Olympic served 3 destinations in the US for 30 years or more.

    ReplyDelete
  52. No. As far as I remember, no US airline ever flew to Yugoslavia. I know that Air Canada had some seasonal flights to Belgrade after the overthrow of Milosevic, but I think that stopped too. Now, US Airways has the Star Alliance codeshare with some airline that flies to Belgrade, but that's it. I'm kind of glad though. American airlines in general like American Airlines, Continental, US Airways, United Airlines, etc. have the most minimal service possible. I hate traveling internationally with any American airline, so I'm kind of glad that they didn't start anything. Hopefully JAT will have exceptional or at least great service ;)

    ReplyDelete
  53. @SerbianSausage

    1.There is absolutely no reason to explain that you are Serbian, as you did in one of the previous posts. It can be seen without explanation.

    2.Yes, airlines from the USA did fly to former Yugoslavia. It was Pan American World Airways-PAN AM, for more then 10 years. And they flew to Belgrade, Dubrovnik and Zagreb. Flight to Belgrade and Dubrovnik were served with 1 stop, with change to smaller aircraft in their hub in FRA (also MUC in short period of time). Flights New York JFK-ZAG were non-stop flights operated by A310, 5 times weekly. Air Canada never served BEG. AC also had non-stop flights from YYZ to ZAG on B767/L15. Only canadian Skyservice served both BEG and ZAG lately, but with one-stop in Dublin, on B757, which was overpriced and not very convenient.

    3.Hospitality of JAT cabin crew (especially towards Croats), and the "same language reasons" : my friends aunt, older croatian lady who was living in the USA for 20 years, flew JAT (this is particularly for JU500) on JFK-ZAG route. She was offered "biftek ili curka" for her meal. She politely asked : Excuse my young lady, what is that "curka"? (purica in croatian). Nice, kind and hospitable young lady replied :"Pa ti ako ne znas sta je ti nemoj da jedes", and continued walking down the aisle with the trolley, leaving poor old lady without a meal. Definitely this is not the rule but the exception, and i am not saying that there would be no passengers to/from croatian coast on possible JU flights in future, but believe me, you can count only at 10% of croatian diaspora among that passengers, and other 90% could be probably US tourists.

    4. I don't know if any of you here heard of DALMATIAN.HR project. If it comes true in a next year of two, JU can forget about majority of passengers between USA, Canada and Croatia, both diaspora and tourists. And also, everything stated in previous posts "in favour" of JU, could be reversed to "dalmatian.hr". At least you must admit that both are only dreams, for know.

    5.Last but by no means least: I am rally shocked with fact that not a single post, out of 53 before mine, didn't even mention that, in order to commence traffic bewteen particular country and the USA, that particular country must have "FAA category 1" categorization, to get which is necesarry to do far far far more then to accept a single law act in national parliament. At the moment, Serbia is categorized as "FAA category 2 country", and it will probably not be changed for some time in near future.

    Best regards from Croatia to every poster here, especially to SerbianSausage and AirKoryoTU204.

    ReplyDelete
  54. @SerbianSausage

    1.There is absolutely no reason to explain that you are Serbian, as you did in one of the previous posts. It can be seen without explanation.

    2.Yes, airlines from the USA did fly to former Yugoslavia. It was Pan American World Airways-PAN AM, for more then 10 years. And they flew to Belgrade, Dubrovnik and Zagreb. Flight to Belgrade and Dubrovnik were served with 1 stop, with change to smaller aircraft in their hub in FRA (also MUC in short period of time). Flights New York JFK-ZAG were non-stop flights operated by A310, 5 times weekly. Air Canada never served BEG. AC also had non-stop flights from YYZ to ZAG on B767/L15. Only canadian Skyservice served both BEG and ZAG lately, but with one-stop in Dublin, on B757, which was overpriced and not very convenient.

    3.Hospitality of JAT cabin crew (especially towards Croats), and the "same language reasons" : my friends aunt, older croatian lady who was living in the USA for 20 years, flew JAT (this is particularly for JU500) on JFK-ZAG route. She was offered "biftek ili curka" for her meal. She politely asked : Excuse my young lady, what is that "curka"? (purica in croatian). Nice, kind and hospitable young lady replied :"Pa ti ako ne znas sta je ti nemoj da jedes", and continued walking down the aisle with the trolley, leaving poor old lady without a meal. Definitely this is not the rule but the exception, and i am not saying that there would be no passengers to/from croatian coast on possible JU flights in future, but believe me, you can count only at 10% of croatian diaspora among that passengers, and other 90% could be probably US tourists.

    4. I don't know if any of you here heard of DALMATIAN.HR project. If it comes true in a next year of two, JU can forget about majority of passengers between USA, Canada and Croatia, both diaspora and tourists. And also, everything stated in previous posts "in favour" of JU, could be reversed to "dalmatian.hr". At least you must admit that both are only dreams, for know.

    5.Last but by no means least: I am rally shocked with fact that not a single post, out of 53 before mine, didn't even mention that, in order to commence traffic bewteen particular country and the USA, that particular country must have "FAA category 1" categorization, to get which is necesarry to do far far far more then to accept a single law act in national parliament. At the moment, Serbia is categorized as "FAA category 2 country", and it will probably not be changed for some time in near future.

    Best regards from Croatia to every poster here, especially to SerbianSausage and AirKoryoTU204.

    ReplyDelete
  55. @Anonymous

    Thanks for joining the discussion.

    1. Someone asked where I was from if I remember correctly, and I was simply stating that I am a Serbian-American who lives in USA.

    2. As I see it, you are right about Pan Am, I forgot about that airline since it became bankrupt. And Air Canada DID fly to Belgrade like 16 times throughout the summer season because my cousins in Canada went on one of those flights directly Toronto-Belgrade. I also checked to see if this was on record, and I still can't find it but let me assure you, its true because they filmed the landing at the airport from their seats.

    3. I think that yes these flights will be primarily for US tourists but also Balkan diaspora. I was just making the point that people in the Ex-Yu region have easier access to their respective homelands thanks to these new flights (if they happen). That being said, my logic for JAT was to expand its regional network by starting flights to major Croatian coastline cities and thus attracting Croats and tourists alike. I'm sure that more than 10% of people on those flights will be of Croatian origin because when it comes own to it, it doesn't matter from what country the airline is from, as long as it gets you where you want to go. I am sorry about your grandmother's incident, but like you said, that is rare, and I think that if JAT wants to attract people, it won't operate with that kind of service.

    4. I've heard of the Dalmation.hr project, but that doesn't seem feasible as much as the Belgrade project. The reason why is that the US looks for a major destination for air routes. That means that Americans like to travel to big destinations and big cities that have a name. Unfortunately, no Croatian city has a big name that Americans wish to travel to. They ma want to visit the country (and I mean with that coast who wouldn't), but Zagreb, Dubrovnik, Pula, etc. are not money-making destinations. People in the US have heard of Belgrade before (not related to the bombings) and the increased interest in Belgrade (as shown through the major investments of American companies and businessmen recently traveling there) makes it sound promising. Besides, Belgrade's fees are much less, and from Belgrade there are more connections and much easier access to places. So even though ideas are there, I wouldn't count on it...it's probably politicians or businesses trying to get their name on the headlines.

    5. I don't know if you have heard, but JAT is about to get the category 1 ranking when the Serbian government passes new laws on air travel, allowing JAT to commence operations in 2012. That was the whole point of the debate in Serbian parliament the other day.

    Again, I'm glad you are part of this and I meant everything I said with respect.

    ReplyDelete
  56. @Anonymous

    2. As I see it, you are right about Pan Am, I forgot about that airline since it became bankrupt. And Air Canada DID fly to Belgrade like 16 times throughout the summer season because my cousins in Canada went on one of those flights directly Toronto-Belgrade. I also checked to see if this was on record, and I still can't find it but let me assure you, its true because they filmed the landing at the airport from their seats.

    3. I think that yes these flights will be primarily for US tourists but also Balkan diaspora. I was just making the point that people in the Ex-Yu region have easier access to their respective homelands thanks to these new flights (if they happen). That being said, my logic for JAT was to expand its regional network by starting flights to major Croatian coastline cities and thus attracting Croats and tourists alike. I'm sure that more than 10% of people on those flights will be of Croatian origin because when it comes own to it, it doesn't matter from what country the airline is from, as long as it gets you where you want to go. I am sorry about your grandmother's incident, but like you said, that is rare, and I think that if JAT wants to attract people, it won't operate with that kind of service.

    4. I've heard of the Dalmation.hr project, but that doesn't seem feasible as much as the Belgrade project. The reason why is that the US looks for a major destination for air routes. That means that Americans like to travel to big destinations and big cities that have a name. Unfortunately, no Croatian city has a big name that Americans wish to travel to. They ma want to visit the country (and I mean with that coast who wouldn't), but Zagreb, Dubrovnik, Pula, etc. are not money-making destinations. People in the US have heard of Belgrade before (not related to the bombings) and the increased interest in Belgrade (as shown through the major investments of American companies and businessmen recently traveling there) makes it sound promising. Besides, Belgrade's fees are much less, and from Belgrade there are more connections and much easier access to places. So even though ideas are there, I wouldn't count on it...it's probably politicians or businesses trying to get their name on the headlines.

    5. I don't know if you have heard, but JAT is about to get the category 1 ranking when the Serbian government passes new laws on air travel, allowing JAT to commence operations in 2012. That was the whole point of the debate in Serbian parliament the other day.

    Again, I'm glad you are part of this and I meant everything I said with respect.

    ReplyDelete
  57. @Anonymous

    2. As I see it, you are right about Pan Am, I forgot about that airline since it became bankrupt. And Air Canada DID fly to Belgrade like 16 times throughout the summer season because my cousins in Canada went on one of those flights directly Toronto-Belgrade. I also checked to see if this was on record, and I still can't find it but let me assure you, its true because they filmed the landing at the airport from their seats.

    3. I think that yes these flights will be primarily for US tourists but also Balkan diaspora. I was just making the point that people in the Ex-Yu region have easier access to their respective homelands thanks to these new flights (if they happen). That being said, my logic for JAT was to expand its regional network by starting flights to major Croatian coastline cities and thus attracting Croats and tourists alike. I'm sure that more than 10% of people on those flights will be of Croatian origin because when it comes own to it, it doesn't matter from what country the airline is from, as long as it gets you where you want to go. I am sorry about your grandmother's incident, but like you said, that is rare, and I think that if JAT wants to attract people, it won't operate with that kind of service.

    4. I've heard of the Dalmation.hr project, but that doesn't seem feasible as much as the Belgrade project. The increased interest in Belgrade (as shown through the major investments of American companies and businessmen recently traveling there) makes it sound promising. Besides, Belgrade's fees are much less than Croatia's airports, and from Belgrade there are more connections and much easier access to places. So even though ideas are there, I wouldn't count on it...it's probably politicians or businesses trying to get their name on the headlines.

    5. I don't know if you have heard, but JAT is about to get the category 1 ranking when the Serbian government passes new laws on air travel, allowing JAT to commence operations in 2012. That was the whole point of the debate in Serbian parliament the other day.

    Again, I'm glad you are part of this and I meant everything I said with respect.

    ReplyDelete
  58. @Anon

    Well JAT has changed in terms of cabin attitudes in the past umm lets see 20 to 30 years! My goodness....Some people nowdays. I am not Serbian but I do remember seeing Belgrade flights at the FNJ departure and arrivals boards around 20 years ago!

    ReplyDelete
  59. @SerbianSausage

    I'm the Anonymous whose post you've just commented.

    I hope i didn't say anything bad in my previous comment, if i did it was definitely not the intention.

    My point with everything here is not to say that JAT or Serbia will not ever have long-haul flights again or that they are not capable of doing that.

    But somehow, very often, on this site and the others, and in everyday discussions, serbian people (especially those still living in Serbia), tend to say that Croatia and croatians are not capable of performing such operations.

    And my opinion, and the point I tried to express in this topic is the following : ex-Yu region has about 25 milion inhabitants, over 40 including BG and RO, and no direct connections to North America. Ex-yu nations have huge diaspora living there. Tourist traffic is stronger and stronger year by year.

    Therefore, again in my opinion, it's not impossible that in near future, both BEG and ZAG, and highly likely DBV, are going to get some transatlantic, and more generally long-haul flights.

    Market will shoe who is going to be more succesfull, and gain more passengers, and have more flights.

    Dalmatian.hr is announcing start of operations with ridicoulously low prices. And as much as I know, JAT is not very cheap.

    On the other hand, I can't absolutely agree with your statement that Belgrade and Serbia are very famous and Zagreb and Croatia are not. That is simply not true, and definitely cannot be the reason for someone to choose the airline.

    Total number of passengers travelling through Serbian airports is little over 2 million, in Croatia it's 6 million, so your story about better connections from BEG is not correct again.

    I don't knoe if you know that Croatia is in USA's visa waiver program, and that visas are soon to be past for croatian citizens. I don't know, too, if you are aware of the fact that a lot has been changed in croatian tourism, and that today, unlike before, we have nine 5-star hotels in Dubrovnik only, which can cater for rich spoiled tourists.

    But, despite all of previously stated, I do think there is a space in ex-Yu market for long-haul, for both airlines from Serbia, and Croatia, and I really hope that we shall see some improvement on this field very soon.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Wow... 59 (minus 3 repeated) comments... I must say that You all broke the record!
    @EX-YU aviation - at the end of the year you could make a list of top 10 2010 EX-YU aviation articles. I bet that 8 out of 10 would include JAT or Belgrade airport in it :)

    Cheers!

    p.s. Iskonski se nadam da ce JAT uspeti u blizoj buducnosti da uspostavi direktne letove BEG-USA, jer mi se cini da ovde vecina posetilaca jedva ceka neki clanak vezan za JAT samo da bi mogla da pocne sa pljuvacinom i tako iskaze svoje licne frustracije ili sta vec... Tuzno zaista, ali umesto da ovo citaju i komentarisu pravi avio fanovi , uvek se svi postovi svedu na bujicu ruznih reci na politickoj ili nacionalistickoj osnovi..., ponavljam - tuzno, da ne kazem tragicno! But, no hard feelings.
    EX-YU aviation, car si! Samo nastavi ovako! Uvek svezi clanci, novosti, vesti koje ne mogu bas svuda da se pronadju. :) Mozda se uspostavom te magicne linije o kojoj svi toliko polemisu, prekine pljuvanje i pokrene se hvaljenje. No, eto, samo da se ogradim, ovaj post se ne odnosi ni na koga specificno. Samo sam hteo jos jednom da skrenem paznju na situaciju ovde, koja bi zaista mogla uskoro da se promeni... bez politike... bez losih reci...Pre nego sto napisete nesto negativno, ujedite se za jezik (ili stegnite pesnice pre nego sto ruke stavite na tastaturu) pa jos jednom razmislite kako i na koji nacin cete nesto napisati. Dobronamerni komentari, primedbe i sugestije kao i razmene informacija, prvenstveno je to svrha ovog bloga, am I wrong? :)

    ReplyDelete
  61. ^ I will make that list at the end of the year but you would be surprised that, according to current statistics, only one post in the top 5 is related to Jat.

    Hvala :)

    ReplyDelete
  62. Nemoj samo da zaboravis da ove avio kompanije su pod drzavnom kontrolu. Dok god drzava ima kontrolu uvek ce se politika ukljuciti u dialog. A kako Milan Stankovic kaze...ovo je Balkan ;)

    ReplyDelete
  63. It's official...Serbia has ratified the new Air Transportation Law giving JAT the category 1 it needs to commence trans-atlantic flights. Good first step...

    http://glassrbije.org/E/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12530&Itemid=56

    ReplyDelete
  64. @Anonymous

    That's great news. All they need now is to become privatized and lease an Airbus A330 ;)

    ReplyDelete
  65. Dude my compliments to JATBEGMEL and SerbianSausage...absolutely raping everyone else and making great points. This is like the Jon Stewart show of Ex-Yu Aviation!!!

    ReplyDelete
  66. Dude if you think this is anything than read the JAT Flirts with Airbus article

    ReplyDelete
  67. Actually guys I know that first flight ORD-BEG will be operated on 3JUN 2011. It will be operated once a week in summer period and twice a month in off season. US company will do it not JAT. Jat had its chance few times but the main problem with Jat is simple JAT does not pay anything to anybody for last two years. They defaulted in everything and with everybody. They were reminded by EUROCONTROL, IATA ... that if they default one more time....There is quite a few people in Jat that know aviation but all of those do not believe in their company and do not believe that if they go far and beyond for JAT, it would do any good to them personally or for their company. Politics would break in and take down any positive effect. So you have on one side people that have know-how but will rather wait for retirement then loose it because of some political jerk-off and on other side you have people that run JAT that do not have freaking clue what and where they are. Trust me all competent know how in JAT is not anywhere near top JU executives. Regarding ORD-BEG route, it is definite that it starts 3JUN but the point will not be to make BEG a hub as also ORD-ZAG route starts, very next day. Point is to take all ethnic pax and form former YU as market not just one particular airport as hub. Pax numbers on both route will decide if there is any need for hubs at all. Now regarding feeder traffic from BEG. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!! Jat just thinks they are way to smart and that is why they lost all good contracts they had. KL-JU contract lost due to JU allways behind and in default, AF same thing, UA due to CO merger, BA due to defaults, etc etc etc. Only valid contract that sells is with LH, and can you assume what will LH do with it when they realize they have monopoly on market? SJJ is good example how they control the market. JU has to go past their former name and realize that they dont have shit, when they realize that then maybe they will have better clue how to approach big companies and kiss their asses back into profitability.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Now regarding fare price... HOW IN THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT FARE ORD-BEG TO BE ANYWHERE CLOSE TO 500$?!?!?! Average CASM for airline on transatlantic flights is 0.12-0.14$. LH around 0.18$. So if you calculate miles needed to transfer pax,PLF,etc... you will realize that fare of 500-600$ is just the way to go out of business. 4350 NM distance can never be flawn with that price of ticket trust me. I do think JAT will be sold to TK and TK will do shit with JU. They will buy it on promisory note, part it out, take good slots JU has on big hubs, FRA,LHR,AMS,BRU,FCO...and close it down. Why? Starr will use TK and JU slots to attack One world and Skyteam in their hubs. Now that strategy for sure does not have JU anywhere on good side in future plans. LH will very soon reduce flights to BEG and leave those to LX. My friends getting slot to land in LHR at 11:35 that JAT has is impossible anymore. That is only value of JU now. Slots. But if you think any airline will give 30-40-50 Mil for those trust me it wont happen. They will take it on promise of strategic partnership and put it down to sleep. Take the slots and explain that JU is simply not profitable. This is not TK brains, this is smart Starr Alliance strategy. Now someone mentioned that feeder traffic keeps route profitable in winter. That is more than true. This is the reason why ORD from BEG is much better solution than NYC. NYC has cheap fares and competition from all airlines that fly transatlantic. But ORD has less competition, great feeder potential due to AA and UA hubs and this is only reason why ORD would be much better strategic solution. Also any company operating those could have something to offer to all three alliances and protect its interest. Pax number mentioned 60K on yearly basis is overblown. For exact numbers you do not go to JAT, serbian government or anybody else than IATA. They are the only one having those figures and price on getting to know those is HUGE!!! If you want to know next airline moves you need to think out of the box. You need to think more as chess player. It is constant pressure to know three moves your competition will make in advance. Except this chess game does not have time limit or actuall winner.It is just a survival game. Remember that all possibility of Belgrade or Zagreb becoming a alliance hub disappeared with Yugoslavia and market is now too small to backup huge investments needed for such move. Sincerly...

    ReplyDelete
  69. @ anonymous
    The fact that Serbia accepted new law does not mean that they recieved Category 1. Last time FAA inspectors were in BEG they left detailed list of 11 points Serbian government needs to change in order to get Cat 1 again. And trust me it will take much more than new law to get it back. Only infrastructure part would cost Serbia more than loan they guaranteed for JU.
    @ everyone
    Second you have to realize that Serbia is not giving the loan to JU, Serbia is just guarantee for Banks to give loan to JU. Serbia does not have 50 mil to loan to anyone. For God sake they depend on MMF to survive on their own. And that does not mean Banks will decide that they will give loan to JU. If banks analize current state of JU they will never approve credit line as JU does not have solid business plan to cover it and JU does not have track record to prove to the banks they can manage to pay back that kind of money. So guarantee by country on verge of financial collapse for company which is lead by politicians without business knowledge. Hmm I wander what can go wrong there... IT WILL NOT BRING ANY GOOD!!! JU WILL DEFAULT AS PER THEIR BUSINESS MODEL, BANKS WILL COME FOR THEIR OWN, PART IT OUT AND AGAIN SCENARIO WHERE JU DOES NOT SURVIVE AND EVEN WORSE IT COSTS GOVERNMENT TO COMPENSATE FOR ALL LOSSES BANKS MADE. There is only one solid solution for JU at the moment. BUSINESS!!! Not loans, pure and simple business. Reduction of costs, reduction of routes, reduction of personnel and increase of fares. Sell junk A/C's or part them out, release 70% of unused work force, cut all empty flights, cut offices in countries you dont fly to for GOD'S SAKE!!! Add on that couple million of details needed to be done and then you have survival. After that you can start thinking of profits. They would be better with 3 profitable aircrafts than 16 loosing money. Do you think Serbian government would ever have common sense to order these things? When they depend on MMF and EU? Common people be realistic. THERE WILL BE NO PROFITABLE SERBIAN AIRLINE IF IT NEEDS FOREIGN MONEY!!! Would you invest your money into someone who will become your competition and risk your own tax income? My friends no one does that. Hm, maybe Serbia. Curently JU is the one lowering fare prices for whole region as all deficits made by those prices are covered by Serbian Governement actually by Serbian citizens. So instead of JU bringing taxes into the budget it is eating the money by taking from the budget. Again that is not business that is just politics. When you want politics to rule aviation you can not expect profits. Politicans are trained to think about spending and wasting money not to think about making profits.

    ReplyDelete

Before posting a comment be mindful of other participants and readers. EX-YU Aviation News does not tolerate insults, excessive swearing, racist, homophobic or any other chauvinist remarks or provocative posts with the intention of creating further arguments. Such comments will be deleted as soon as possible. The opinions expressed by those providing comments are theirs alone, and do not reflect the opinions of EX-YU Aviation News. Thank you for your cooperation.