Thursday, January 16, 2014

Adria launching Kiev service

Adria returning to Kiev in 2014

Adria Airways plans to resume services to the Ukrainian capital after three years, Boryspil Airport said in a statement yesterday. It will mark Adria’s return to Kiev for the first time since the 2011 summer season. Previously, flights operated on a seasonal summer basis with Adria being the only EX-YU airline offering links to Ukraine at the time. In a press release, Ukraine’s busiest airport said, “A total of eight airlines, which have previously not maintained regular flights to Kiev, have applied for permits to launch services to Ukraine’s largest airport in 2014”. The airport adds that among them are Adria Airways and Air Serbia, though Emirates, which will launch flights to the city today, is its star arrival. Air Italy has also been named as a new customer while new services to Istanbul, Thessaloniki and Budapest will also be launched.

Adria is yet to publicise the new route or put tickets on sale. This year the airline will be resuming many flights it previously suspended as a result of cost cutting measures. Kiev was one of the carrier’s first casualties. Adria will also return to Prague and Warsaw this coming summer season. Furthermore, the airline will resume seasonal flights to London Gatwick from May 17 and is believed to be close to finalising its schedule for seasonal flights to Ohrid, which it also previously served. On top of the new routes from its Ljubljana base, the carrier will also inaugurate nonstop flights from Tirana to Frankfurt.

Adria Airways plans to significantly boost passenger numbers in the coming years as it shifts its business model from a full fare legacy carrier to a more hybrid low cost airline model. The Slovenian carrier aims to handle two million passengers per year by 2020 according to its recent business strategy for the next six year. In addition, it is looking to cut down on frequencies while at the same time boosting capacity by operating larger aircraft.

126 comments:

  1. What's next, Varna, Beirut?

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    1. Apparently, Adria is becoming Air Serbia copy-cat (Prague, Warsaw...), however this must be the most absurd decision of all taken so far. With Air Serbia flying daily and Kiev being more than decently served and extremely competitive on the market towards Western Europe, Tirana is the only place where they face no competition and enjoy some exclusivity (notwithstanding the fact that the Ukraine-Albania market is huge already, sic.).

      If getting closer to insolvency is their goal, this is the right way to go. This seems to me more of a move to hamper Air Serbia than in the real interest of Adria; against JU but not for JP. (Thinking LH?)

      PS: To the mod, it's airport Borispol, not Boryspil.

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    2. @AэrologicJanuary 16, 2014 at 9:48 AM

      So according to your logic only Air Serbia is allowed to fly to Kiev, and only Air Serbia can make a profit on that route cause Air Serbia is a an miracle airline that makes huge profits out of thing air.

      I think people at Adria are a lot smarter than you give them credit.

      U should stop trolling and be happy that Adria is expanding.

      Go Adria !

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    3. Agreeee .... LJU is much closer to some other more important airports than BEG which are served by more distingushed airlines.

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    4. ^last anonymous: how is that an argument in favour of JP?

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    5. It has nothing to do with Air Serbia being a miraculous airline but it has to do with it having a much larger network and a higher number of frequencies all across its network, that's why it will be easier for JU to position itself in Kiev. Furthermore, Air Serbia has a lower CASM, especially if Adria decides to dispatch its CRJ 200 (or even 900) to Kiev. Technically, Air Serbia and Belgrade are not Adria's primary competitors, it's Vienna and Austrian Airlines. In my opinion Adria should further expand in the west if it wants to survive.

      Though this route is strange I think Adria is smart and it understands what it has to do in order to compete effectively. Building a good hub in Ljubljana is a move in the right direction. I just wonder if they will also return to their Balkan strategy which they started to develop just before the crisis. I just hope they get rid of the CRJ 200 as soon as possible. Maybe it's time they do what airBaltic did and get some Q400s. I believe that aircraft is the right fit for them.

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  2. Good luck, Adria! Hope everything goes well in the next few years!

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  3. i wonder what will their prices be like. i'm just checking on JU's web site, KBP-LJU is 187€ round trip (i just picked random dates 07.06-13.06). entire trip is 4 hrs each way

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  4. It is not stupid. Adria will hardly fight against BEG connection to Southeast (Varna, Sofia, Athens, Thessaloniki, Beirut, Abu Dhabi...), but for sure can do it to Northeast. Deviation via BEG makes real ticket more expensive that direct one from LJU. And in that case Air Serbia can just go on dumping and work without profit or even to lose money.

    Even if price would be almost the same potential passenger will always choose direct flight as on that way they spend less time, there is smaller chance of problems (cancellation, loosing luggage, loosing connections because of delays...), passengers want to avoid flight to EU via nonEU airport (it is much easier for passengers from WAW and PRG to go to EU destination inside EU), and some of people still avoid BEG for several reasons (involvement in war, STUPID ideas about "south" or that Serbia is “somewhere in Russia” without electricity, still have bad image of Jat and connect Air Serbia with that...).

    P.S.
    Those STUPID ideas are not my opinion (to avoid discussion and personal insults), but there are still lot of ignorant people of which some are potential passengers. For example my mother is afraid of Serbia, my friend was colonel during war, my business partner from France thing Serbia is in level of Cuba..., and they all will not fly via BEG in any case. One more time it is not my opinio, I was in Serbia in last 100 days 4 times, but I know lot of ignorant people.

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    1. Purger, are you aware of the capacity and frequency Adria would need to invest in order to compete with Air Serbia* on any of those routes?

      *and other carriers

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    2. Nobody would fly Adria via Ljubljana to Warsaw or Prague. That's a totally absurd idea. There are many direct options (including low-cost ones) and i don't see a particular O&D to LJU, much less than to BEG which is minimal in order to sustain a direct line. I don't see a single route (besides Tirana) where Adria could compete. On routes to Western Europe, they would face an even worse competition from Air Baltic (which is the example of what Adria would ought to be) than from Air Serbia.

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    3. Air Serbia at least has the money and fleet to dump capacity and offer a flexible schedule, i mean are we talking about Adria dedicating one daily aircraft only for Kiev? Adria will face competition from:

      - Ukraine International
      - Czech Airlines
      - LOT
      - Wizz Air
      - Air Baltic
      - Air Serbia
      - Turkish Airlines
      - ...and others.

      So far Lufthansa was very happy to serve the entire Ex-Yu region to Ukraine (~50 million country) market through Munich and Vienna. Now Etihad spotted the gold mine and they're sending their minnows after it. 'Too little, too late' in my opinion.

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    4. Why should I fly over BEG if I have option to do it over VIE or MUC? Just if I get the best price and time to reach the destination. And BTW I do not understand the newly mindset of many that BEG and Air Serbia became the middle of the world.

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    5. @Aэrologic

      Your pride was hurt, you're thinking, how dare these Slovenians fly to Kiev and take Air Serbia's business away.

      Well most Ukranians that need to travel to Zagreb or Slovenia will choose to travel with Adria Airways for reasons Purger mentioned. #

      Direct connections to far better than going via non-EU airport to get to the EU.

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    6. Dear Anonymous, it isn't my pride, it is Adria's wallet that's gonna be hurt. If they're fine with that, i'm fine with it and they'll be paying us handling fees, what i can't be against. :)

      "Direct connections to far better than going via non-EU airport to get to the EU."

      Actually, you're wrong. Don't know what you wanted to say exactly by "to far better than" but if i try to decipher it i could say that many Ukrainians are actually looking forward of travelling to Belgrade because Serbia is one of the rare countries in Europe where Ukr. nationals do not need Visas.

      To be frank with you, i almost don't know any Ukrainians who travel to Zagreb or Slovenia. On the other hand i know quite a few that travel to Serbia, especially Montenegro.

      All in all, i don't care if Adria is gonna fly to Kiev or not (good for KBP's accounts, you can send the daily A320 if you ask me), all what i'm saying is that it probably isn't the best option for a debt-ridden airline on the brink of bankruptcy, headquartered in a city that sees almost nil O&D to the given destination and with a handful of highly competitive connecting routes mostly to Western Europe (besides Tirana, again).

      From the simple point of view of market logic, this route is the laureate for the most absurd launch in 2014 so far.

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    7. As the meter of fact that is perfect decision by Adria. In same time they will hurt Air Serbia: less possible passengers in connection (direct Adria flights to Warsaw, Kiev, Prague, Moscow, Istanbul, Athens, Skopje, Sarajevo, Podgorica) = less potential passengers even on LJU-BEG route, and after some time if will be questionable to go on with that route. Especially as Etihad shows in Air Berlin and Air Seychelles examples they cut routes which are not profitable.

      Second thing is that they really can make money on those routes. Yes, I agree that more people will use connections via BEG from TGD, SJJ and SKP, but in same time LJU have connection to PRN and TIA (which JU does not have). Also lot of Zagreb, North and Northwest passengers will use those flights. I personally from Zagreb will rather travel to LJU (130 km) and than to WAW, PRG and KBP; than to VIE (380 km), BEG (400 km) or BUD (420 km), especially to BEG where I have to pay extra gas (for extra 540 km), extra toll (most of Croats have yearly vignette for Slovenia so I already pay for toll, and to BEG I have to pay every time extra 52 EUR), or that I pay expensive connections from ZAG via VIE, MUC, FRA, ZRH. Ljubljana is just 1 hour driving including short ID check in EU line on “border”. In same time you have to know that there is lot of passengers to Prague (huge tourist and business center + connections) and especially to WAW which is Star Alliance hub with lot of possible connections and code-share for Adria there. Also there is 50.000 Ukrainians working and leaving in Croatia (mostly as physical workers, but also as ballet dancers, sport trainers, doctors, even my priest is Ukrainian Greco-catholic and work in our Catholic parish). For sure there are some also in Slovenia. In same time there is lot of business Slovenians and Croats have in Ukraine like gas, metallurgical industry, weapon (for example all Croatian Mig-21 and An-32B fleets and helicopter Mi-8 and Mi-171 fleets are maintained in Ukraine)... Aslo there are lot of tourist in area (look how many charters you have to Pula, Split and Dubrovnik from Ukraine) and for sure some of those will use that line in combination of short-break in Ljubljana or with bus transportation to destination in Istria.

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    8. So, instead of using direct flights the pax from Kiev will connect in LJU to make it to WAW and PRG?

      And even if they prefer so, there are OS and LH to serve them.

      The idea of pax flying from Kiev to IST/SVO via LJU is exceptionally amusing.

      So what do we have left? Ukranian tourists and mass pax with dual citizenship. All related to Croatia and not Slovenia though. And OU seems to be ignoring this gold mine.

      JP fans' last worry about this route should be JU. And they should worry about some aspects far more serious than aerologic's posts.

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    9. Also, all these thousands of tourists that go to Croatia come on chartered flights, not direct ones.

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    10. Ah yes, and they will compete TK who offer double daily to PRN/TIA (not to mention PC)?

      Good luck majstori :)

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    11. Omg... Can u please cut it out with these perceptions... I'm residing in Canada and I'm of mix parents ( Serbian/Croatian) and I can not even describe in words amount of negative publicity Croatia as country is enjoying these days: Šimunić incident, incidents that followd in other soccer arenas all over Croatia, referendum od marriage definition etc... If u don't believe me ... Just google it...it's all over news in NA from Washington post, NY times to all major tv networks. Croatia is being portrait as a very racist country... We know that's not true and idiots live everywhere but, at least we can stop with perception and examples ( " my French friend said this and that" ) common now... OMG.. U should see what my friends are asking me these days .. Wow this really blows my Mind...

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    12. Of course Dante we know that here. We are totally aware of that! But now we are not about traveling via ZAG, but comparation of traveling to LJU directly or via BEG, and pluses and minuses of that.

      That bad Croatian image will not help in much worst Serbian image.

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    13. It seems to me that Serbian image internationally is not really harming Air Serbia. Their planes from Ljubljana, Prague, Moscow, Istanbul, Athens, Thessaloniki... are full with connecting passengers.

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    14. WHO in the hell is gonna travel from Kiev to LJU and even if they do:
      1 - What guarantees JP will be the best option
      (there isn't just Air Serbia but whole LH group and TK)
      2 - What guarantees Adria will earn money on that, given they even don't have a suitable aircraft for the route?

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    15. Purger, I rearely comment on this page, but the only reason why I commented now is because you seemed to be normal guy that never, get into war of words with some of the forumers here...and all of a sudden you do with some nonsense. To be honest with you, I think Croatian image is way worst now. You have to have in minde that whole new generation has been raised since 90s....they remember exit festival, parties in Belgrade....etc.....I have a lot of family in Croatia and they can not even comprehend to what degree croatian image is destroyed... Trust me when thousands so people on different days and different arenas chant "zig hail" (translation)...echoes in all directions and in the ears of everyone.

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    16. Let's also not forget the whole Vukovar Cyrillic issue where the image of Croats as intolerant bigots travelled the world and where the Serbs were actually presented as the victims.

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    17. I am not in war. I thing we have very good, healthy discussion, don’t we?

      One more time, yes Croatian image is low, not as deep as you want to show, but low. And I am not proud of that, that has to be changed. Starting from stupid thing prime minster did to heads of people.

      But because of that potential passenger for sure will not choose rather Air Serbia from LJU to KBP via BEG instead of direct flight by JP. Slovenian image is not in question, and yes, it is much higher than Serbian.

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    18. Guys, this Purger is obviously not "the Purger", therefor just ignore the guy.

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    19. Parties in Belgrade and Exit festival? OMG, only Zag has more tourist last year than Belgrade, not to mention the coast that has more and more tourists. Where are you living man, in some woods in Canada?

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    20. Unfortunately it is the real Purger, back in the days of "Qatar launching ZAG".

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    21. How can someone dare to thing different? And for sure Purger is Serbofob or Serbozder now! Hater! What ever he said before now is nothing, just because he thing Adria made good move introducing KBP, WAW and PRG he should be killed! It is enough that Adria dare to open those flights now someone even dare to say it is good move. That is treason against «Nebeski narod»! He must be shot!

      And on top of that he give example that on Air Serbija IST flight there was 20 passengers and Load factor was just 14,9%. When that happened no one can write about this. Just when Load factor is 100%. Than we have to write 200 comments on that. But when this happened... Sorry, that can not happen to Air Serbia. Even yesterday flight was 100% full. With ghost. Everything is PINKY!

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    22. No, everything is not pinky yet, it's just rosy ;-)

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  5. Adria could not keep up with JAT when it had just old 737. Forget about Air Serbia. This year Air Serbia will transport as many pax as OU and JP.

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    1. Yeah, and pigs can fly too!

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  6. LJU and BEG are more than 550km apart and each one serves different catchment area. Arround LJU there are several airports you can easy rech in about one hour ride. That counts more than 4 mio population. Most of them (except ZAG) do not cover any of mentionend destinations. The whole area is EU so as Purger says - why should these people be transfered over no EU country.

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    1. Maybe because they are going to /coming from a non-EU country? o<O

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    2. Precisely! Why are people constantly forgetting that Ukraine isn't (and probably won't be in the near future) part of the EU!?

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    3. But WAW and PRG are, and also lot of business travelers from Ukraine have diplomatic or EU passports (as they are European or they are reach enough to buy "European citizenship" what is normal practice in Russia, Ukraine etc.) + lot of Ukrainians live in Croatia/Slovenia and lot of them even have Croatian passports (for example one of my employee come to Croatia for working and she get Croatian citizenship in 5 years, there are number of Ukrainian female to married in Croatia and get citizenship, lot of sportsmen and experts to get Croatian passport...) + tourist will always choose direct line...

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    4. Ok, if we are going to follow that logic then Adria will be murdered, not by Air Serbia, but by Austrian Airlines. Why would anyone fly to the region on Adria via Ljubljana when Vienna is far more convenient (better infrastructure, more comfortable planes, more flights/options...)?

      I am not buying the whole argument that there is enough O&D passengers from Kiev to the region. If there were then Kiev would not have been among the first to be cut and it would not take the airline three years to return. Adria is after connecting passengers here, that's a fact.

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    5. But yes, Austrian IS killing not just Adria but also Croatia. Why do you thing those companies are in that deep shit (just because of management without huge help of Austrian and Lufthansa). It is not Air Serbia who is big competition with 60 seats per day from LJU, but OS and LH. And yes, out of my 10 flights I fly 8 from VIE. Because of passengers like me there are no high potentials in ZAG and LJU (and most of us are like this in Northern Croatia and Slovenia).

      But in this example, I will always rather fly from LJU to KBP, PRG or WAW than from VIE, BUD or BEG. Even if ticket will be 200 EUR more expensive I have much more costs than those 200 EUR to travel to those cities than to LJU. And for me it is much easier to drive to LJU which is, like Croatia, inside EU, than to BEG. I also don’t have lot of free time to spend, and Ljubljana is in 1 hour driving. And for sure passenger from LJU will rather fly directly from LJU than via BEG if price will be +/- 50 EUR difference. For sure connected flight has more costs than direct one so Adria should be even cheaper than JU, but if it will not JU for sure will works in dumping with big loss.

      One more time who are potential passengers:
      - 60.000 Ukrainians in Slovenia and Croatia
      - tourist
      - business travelers (gas, havy industry, army especially Croatian who have huge business in Ukraine maintenance of plane and helicopter fleets)
      - connection passengers (especially from TIA and PRN, but if price will be good even from SJJ, SKP, TGD).

      Yes, I don’t think there is enough P2P passengers on LJU-KBP (but there is in LJU-WAW and LJU-PRG), in same time there are even less of those in Serbia, but still you plan to have 7 flights per week with almost 900 seats.

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    6. 1. If Ukraine and Croatia have such tremendous connections, how come neither OU or PS bothered to establish routes so far? Is JP the only carrier able to spot this booming market?

      2. What makes you think the loss of transit pax from LJU would hamper JU's KBP route? Neither JU opened KBP because of LJU transit nor JU's load on the LJU route depends on transit pax from KBP.

      3. JU aside, how do you think JP will do against LH, OS, TK? They will all dump prices and sink into losses because JP spotted Ukraine? I think you will find that market a bit more effectively served than it appears from the Balkans...

      Both JU and JP will struggle to attract pax to their KBP flights - and NOT because of each other's presence.

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    7. Didn't this blog write how Air Serbia's flights from Ljubljana saw a lot of passengers travelling via Belgrade to Greece and Moscow?
      Adria flies to Moscow yet Air Serbia managed to steal a part of its market. Why should Kiev be any different?

      Plus, I am sure that Air Serbia is primarily targeting Slovenes heading to the Balkans and the Middle East. If Air Serbia can offer a competitive fare then I do not see why Slovenes would opt not to fly via Belgrade even if it means backtracking.

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    8. 1. For sure there is no more passengers from LJU to SVO via BEG. Even if all 40 passengers on LJU-BEG leg transfer to SVO, that is even not ¼ of than everyday direct flight with A320 and potential 160 passengers. And for sure not all passengers on LJU-BEG route travel to Moscow via BEG, right?

      2. Why there is no ZAG-KBP rote? Why there is no OU ZAG-SVO, ZAG-PRG, ZAG-WAW, ZAG-DUS, ZAG-TXL, ZAG-STR, ZAG-HAM, ZAG-MPX, ZAG-FCO (direct), ZAG-DBX, ZAG-OTP, ZAG-SOF, ZAG-ARN, ZAG-HEL, ZAG-MAD, ZAG-BCN... routes? Let me just tell you two magic letters: LH (OS, LX, SN, 4U)

      3. I did not say that LJU-KBP will «hamper» JU BEG-KBP route. I just said that this is Adria’s clever move, as they can make some money on that route and in same time will hurt LJU-BEG route. Of course not just with KBP, but several potential passengers to PRG, several to WAW, several to KBP, to SVO, to TGD, SJJ, SKP, ATH, IST... and one can ask himself will there be enough passengers on LJU-BEG route to go on with it.

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    9. Generally speaking, Air Serbia hurts many people in CRO and SLO. Don't worry, Purger, Air Serbia is going to be stronger in short time. James Hogan stay somewhere behind ... There will be no mistakes.

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    10. I hope so! Really I hope you are right!

      Good and powerful Air Serbia
      = softer and more cooperative Lufthansa
      = much better Croatia Airlines
      = much more opportunity for passengers, lower prices, better service, more routes!

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    11. So basically you are saying that Adria will force Air Serbia out of LJU-BEG and all that with much smaller (and less economical) fleet, much smaller network and smaller pockets? Is Emirates backing Adria or what? Purger, in what world you live?

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    12. Purger, if you really wish what you wrote above then you should be praising the ability to buy a BEG-SAW flight for 125 euro 2 days prior to takeoff. Because all of us passengers share the primary interest to fly affordably and comfortably. How the carriers make money out of it is their own business. If they go bust, well what the hell - at least they tried something and passengers benefited from it. I would gladly read any analysis from aviation geeks because I want to learn more, still the bottomline remains - the cheaper the better. And no rational reason to push all alarm buttons because of it.

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    13. Sure, and I will be the first to fly with Air Serbia with those prices. I just hope that they will open BEG-ZAG route with good connections because I hate to drive to BEG.

      And I don't care if that is Arabian, Serbian or whoever money to make dumping and those prices. I just hope there is enough money in pocket and that these prices will stay here for long. I hope that Etihad will not do the same as in Air Berlin and cut those routes which did not make profit. I really hope so.

      I also hope that this will have influence on Adria, Croatia, Austrian, Lufthansa, and others prices too.

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  7. great news for JP!just a question, why do you think every new destination announced by JP is in order JP to compete against JU?!it would do you well, to get back to reality and find out, not everything in the region is about JU.i know it may sound like that (competition), PRG,WAW,KBP, but not many people would fly, say, LJU BEG WAW or PRG.while LJU BEG SKG/ATH/LCN make sense..

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    1. @AnonymousJanuary 16, 2014 at 10:24 AM

      Not everything evolved around Air Serbia, despite what you might think.

      Adria can fly anywhere they choose to, and if you think that Kiev is exclusive and solo right Air Serbia has been given by some diety than you have another thing coming.

      If Adria can make a buck on Kiev Ljubljana route, why not try make some money on this route.


      I know this might make Air Serbia loose potential transfer passengers but I think Adria is smart enough to see the potential, there are 46 million Ukrainians who in the past had to switch at Budapest or Prague to get to Ljubljana.

      The route is premaritally aimed at business and tourist visitors, and with Zagreb only 1 hour away by train Adria has strong potential on that route, I wish them all the best, sadly that Croatian airlines didn't come up with the same route earlier, 60 000 Ukrainians visit Croatia each year, a direct link to Zagreb would have been a logical thing to do.







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    2. Well nobody thinks it is something against serbian people or something like that, the fact is, as one of the earlier comments stated, that you can reach Kiev via Belgrade in just 4 hours with some really nice fares (187 euros).

      And JP wants to take those transit pax and to use them for their own KBP. Nobody took it personally.

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    3. +1 ... this is just a business

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    4. Aэrologic is clearly upset, he seems to think Air Serbia is the only airline that suppose to fly to the east, and that Belgrade is only place where transfers should occur should a lost Ukrainian business person wish to fly to Ljubljana, as according to his trollish logic Ukrainians travel to Serbia only, cause Serbia has no visa regime with Ukraine.

      A Wake up call, Croatia revived 50-60 000 Ukrainian visitors each year, even with visa restrictions in place. Far more visitors than Serbia revived in any given year.

      I'm sure Ljubljana Airport and Adria Airways have looked at financial picture before deciding on Kiev, there are 46 million Ukrainians, I'm sure 1% of these can afford to visit Slovenia at some point in their life, and that's 460 000, imagine if that number is 4.6 million and you get the idea. Getting a visa for Ukrainians is same as getting visa for Serbians, I'm sure you wish to visit the EU, you need to make sure you really have the means to visit the EU, otherwise you might be denied entrance in to the EU, visa or no visa, rules for non-EU citizens are same, you need a visa and proof of income.

      That said, I'm sure 10% of Ukrainians have means of obtaining relevant visas and sufficient funds to visit the EU, with visa, naturally.

      I think what Adria is doing is brave of them and clearly they have looked at financials and think they can make a profit on the route.

      As to the price of tickets, most airlines in the EU charge between 120 and 200 euros per ticket for any destination with in Europe.

      187 euros seems very pricey to me, I'm sure I can get a ticket for less with KLM and Lufthansa from Munich or Amsterdam.

      Ik kies eieren voor mijn geld!
      As we say in Holland.

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    5. I'd very much like to see a ticket from Kiev to the Balkans with KLM or Lufthansa for less than 187€.

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    6. @ Dutch guy (AnonymousJanuary 16, 2014 at 12:57 PM)

      It is not pricey. You cannot compare flights from MUC and AMS from which you can get to almost every capital in Europe DIRECTLY, with the situation with LJU or BEG.

      187e for a TRANSIT passenger is quite cheap, if you take into account that the given airline did not have any competition (up until now).

      Direct flights with Air Serbia Belgrade - Kiev and Belgrade - Warsaw are only 129 euros.

      Do you know what is expensive? Belgrade - Warsaw (for the same dates) with LOT 205 euros or Belgrade - Zurich with Swiss 282 euros or LOT fares for Warsaw last summer.

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    7. Or ZRH-SKP/OHD during holidays - 600€ at least :D

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  8. European Commission ruling?

    Adria it's just blabla fantasy till taxpayers money is there.

    P.S: Kiev is already served by Lufthansa (Munich, Frankfurt), Austrian -operated by Tyrolean (Vienna), Swiss etc.
    no one will connect via Ljubljana with that choices.

    For the "local" traffic no much traffic.



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  9. And for the money savers there is already
    Kyiv International Airport (Zhuliany)
    to
    - Treviso, Budapest etc. (Wizzair),

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  10. applied for permits it's not meaning flying

    Which are the other 6 airlines that applied for Kiev 1. time?

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  11. Off toppic: AirSerbia's fifth Airbus A319 (YU-APF) should arrive today around 19:40 LT.

    Regarding Adria, I wish them all the best. I am not sure if it is going to be good move, many things could go wrong, still if they want to survive they have to expand! Privatisation off all exYu airliners is the only way out. Or merging maybe, but that is less likely.

    Све најбоље!

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    1. Jatovanje in Air SerbiaJanuary 16, 2014 at 12:52 PM

      It comes 1 month after announcement. Typical Jatovanje in Air Serbia.

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    2. http://www.flightradar24.com/YUAPF

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  12. Not good, not good!

    My friend bought ticket with Air Serbia to Istanbul on Monday, he fly today. So ticket bought 3 days in advance and just for 125 EUR (price for round trip). He will return tomorrow. And still LF is very low (53%) with those prices. That is not price, that is almost for free. I presume yield is disaster!

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    1. I think Air Serbia wants to attract transfers, but I agree 125 euros for return is a LC rate not legacy rate. If Air Serbia continues on that path they'll be broke before year ends.

      I know Ethiad promised 5 year stay, but with current menagment I doubt they'll stick long enough if Air Serbia doesn't turn profit in 2015.

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    2. Is it a direct flight or is he connecting via Belgrade? If it's a direct flight from Belgrade then €125 is really not bad, after all, it is a one hour flight and they fly into SAW which is cheaper than IST, not to mention that JU still enjoys a 'new airline discount' there.
      Don't forget that Air Serbia does not operate with Jat Airways' cost structure.

      JU's finances the first year will be a disaster but then again any new business venture takes time to reach profitability. Good thing is that their business class passengers saw healthy growth and we all know that they are the primary source of income.

      Delete
    3. How much do you expect for an 80-minute trip? 350 euro? With two more carriers flying to Istanbul?

      53% is JU's average load while SAW is among their best performing routes (far above 53%).

      They are rebranding, repositioning and remodeling themselves, for god's sake. What do you expect, expensive flights and fully loaded aircraft?

      There will be plenty of time to discuss JU's alleged failure, be patient.

      Delete
    4. It is good to feel confident, that Air Serbia will do good on the expansion, but please look at an article in Aero Anna, from yesterday, in regards to Air Berlin. Air Berlin, which Etihad has 29 percent control, is cutting 30 routes and 9 airports.It also states that the airlines seasonality problem is undermining profitability. I never expected this, from Air Berlin. This could happen to Air Serbia too. Time will only tell.

      Delete
    5. Air Berlin is a bit of a different story because of several reasons. First of all Etihad has 'only' 29% of the airline which means that they do not enjoy the same amount of freedom they do in Serbia and in Seychelles.

      Second of all, Air Berlin is an EU airline which means that the finance mechanisms are stricter and they can't endlessly pump money into the carrier. Air Serbia is not an EU carrier which means that they can throw as much money at it as they want to. Brussels can't do much- actually they can't do anything.

      German union laws protect Air Berlin employees. When Jat Airways unions started protesting against the merger the government silenced them in one afternoon- rightly so in my opinion.

      Air Berlin was also involved with flyniki which was not profitable and was draining the carrier. That's why they needed to deal with the issue of the Vienna hub before anything else.

      All in all, Air Berlin was/is a bigger mess than Jat Airways. Naturally, what they are doing in Belgrade is a risky move but the hurdles ahead are nowhere close to those they are facing in Germany which is also home to Lufthansa.

      Naturally, I wish them all the best and I think the comments about their loadfactor are silly since the airline has been operating for only two months now. We should wait for six months at least to see the real results.

      Delete
    6. Guys, please don't try to make it looks better than it is. Because it is not.

      1:40 minutes flight (and BEG-SAW is not 1:00, but 1:30-1:40 flight) should be, even in January, for legacy carrier 200-220 EUR. And if Air Serbia give that price (125 EUR) 4-6 months in advance in some kind of «action» than it is OK, but let me point one more time TICKET WAS BOUGHT 3 DAYS BEFORE FLIGHT (to be precise 68 hours before flight, even less than 3 days). Price should be 240-280 EUR than.

      You said that Air Serbia does not have same cost structure than Jat. Of course not. But we are not building here Jat, but much better company that has to be profitable. On way that in same time they have LCC price and legacy cost structure = that is suicide. What more, they even don't have same service as other legacy carrier in Europe, but level of service is much higher. For example in Croatia A319 have 144 seats, Lufthansa and Austrian 138, and Air Serbia just 128 seats + much better service (catering, privileges, entertainment...). And that costs money, making possible profit lower. Basically bigger costs for less possible seats in same plane is less potential money. And on those bigger costs you have LCC prices with lowest LF in Europe = big loss.

      “What do you expect, expensive flights and fully loaded aircraft?”
      Yes that should be the goal. But for now I expect:
      - eider expensive flights with modest LF (but even in that case it should be more than 60%)
      - or very cheep flights with very high LF (that for sure is necessary for new company with aggressive grow)
      But to have in same time cheep flights with modest LF for sure is quick end!

      Delete
    7. Sure, dumping prices over a period of time is a suicidal strategy never seen in the history of commercial aviation :)

      Delete
    8. Purger +1

      It is weird how there is a 53% LF for a destination being operated 25 times per week.

      It is not a disaster, but JU management should ask themselves what are they doing. After people reporting large amounts of transit pax from SAW, Athen and Thessaloniki, now we have this.

      Thank you Purger for your critical oppinion, pozdrav iz Srbije.

      Delete
    9. One more time dumping price that produce HIGH LF is OK. Powerful tool if you have enough money in your pocket for that tool!

      But dumping + far the lowest LF in Europe = suicide!

      Delete
    10. Purger, you do realize that currently the goal of the airline is not to make massive profits but it's to attract as many people as possible to travel with the airline and to experience the product first-hand. When the customer base is built then it will be able to increase the fares without losing many customers. Air Serbia's brand awareness will be reached only by dumpling fares within its network as it is currently doing. Furthermore, as someone mentioned, Istanbul flights are some of the best performing ones within the airline's network. Most of the passengers here are transit ones so they can probably afford to dump the ones for the O&D travellers thus fighting Pegasus more effectively.

      Delete
    11. Purger, Air Serbia's loadfactor to Istanbul is healthy. I do not know what you are talking about here. The route is doing fine.
      The airline's loadfactor is in the 50s because of other routes.

      Delete
    12. Is it Nemjee? What is good LF for you? 53%, 60%, 65%, 70%.

      Today good LF for legacy carrier in winter is 75% in summer 85% (all year 80%) with "normal" prices, not dumping.

      If JU sell tickets 3 days in advance for 125 EUR, and even if LF on that flight is 70%, yield is terrible.

      Delete
    13. OK. IN TODAY JU IST-SAW LF WAS 20%

      So, if they have 20% LF with 125 EUR round trip per passenger, that is 1.600 EUR for that flight! Yield? for how long you can do that?

      Source: my "best men", that was in that flight today!

      Delete
    14. So you are basing your argument on a single flight? For example I know a few people who flew the route and the loadfactor was at least 75% to 80%. Even on this blog Istanbul was never listed as a destination which is under-performing. I am sure that today's flight was an anomaly.

      Are you seriously comparing well-established legacy carriers who have been flying for decades with Air Serbia which has been around for a bit more than two months?! You surely can't be serious. Actually, your statement is a joke.
      In its first month of operations its passenger number rose by 12%. I am sure that this growth was even more impressive in December and January. Give the airline a few more months. Look at how hard it has been for Virgin American to survive and it operated out of a smaller market with far less competition.

      Delete
    15. Using small calculation (fuel for 2.6 hours return flight to SAW, with BEG and SAW airport taxes (including in ticket price), for BEG-SAW return flight the expenditures are nearly 9000 €. If the lowes ticket is 125 €, average is at least150 €. With LF=0.6 including business class valuated 2 EC seat, revenue is 12240 € and gain 3240 € per leg. If there are at least 4 legs during day with this LF the gain is 12960 € for salary, promotions, catering, maintenance, depreciation or leasing planes and all what included balance sheet. If average lease is 150000 € per month, all other expenses I think can be covered with the rest of the money. Or maybe not. To be successful with 0.6 LF the best is 4 times per day short leg, minimal administration, no representatives or minimum, some additional credits from airports as I think AS has form SAW

      Delete
    16. Purger, you are all exclusive today: tens of thousands of ukranian tourists who only wait JP to take them to Croatia, tens of thousands of Ukranians who hold Croatian passports and only wait JP to start taking them to Croatia every weekend, thousands of business people who manage billions of $ of trade between Ukraine and Croatia and badly need JP to reach each other, 20% LF on JU's flights to SAW (which you could not even multiply correctly with 125 euro), pax who will fly to IST/SVO via LJU, pax who will fly to PRG/WAW via LJU (direct flights from Kiev banned while you were writing this cheerful prognosis or you simply consider direct connections overrated?)...

      And nobody in the world aware of this unique JP's ability to connect Ukraine with the rest of the world? What a visionary move...

      And when people ask you simple Qs about it you switch to JU's LF and your best man...

      How about you call it a day? I don't know what hurt you so much but you are nose diving your credibility.

      Unless that copycat hijacked your nickname again?

      Delete
    17. I am sure it was not purgers post. I just came back to BEG from Istanbul, B733 was packed, 100% lLF, mainly transit pax. My friend from Denmark who works in Istanbul bought a ticket for Air Serbia flight SAW-BEG-CPH for 145 Euros return.He will stay in Beograd 3 days and going to Copenhagen.

      Delete
    18. Unfortunately it was Purger, it was his style of writing.

      Delete
    19. Why on earth you make huge problem from it?

      My best men Vladimir Skenderija was today in plane. 20 passengers (not even 20%) in 737. Price of return ticket 125 EUR. If that is practice God help Air Serbia. If that was one unhappy example, it is not a big deal... But even if so, that is really strange to have 20 passengers in 134 seat plane.

      But I am really wonder is it possible to have oscillation in flight that one day there is 20 passengers, another day 100% full. Here we can read contradictory information. One say that flights are totally full, other that they are empty.

      But at the end of day, there is the fact that LF is 53%, and by promo prices they have from very start yield should not be good. I hope that will be changed. In near future. Because Etihad is not very “understandable” for not making profit, and even Serbia does not have money to compensate debts after 2 years (even 50% of those).

      Delete
    20. Average LF on Belgarde-Sabiha route for the first three months was 43%.

      Delete
    21. And that is good? That is total fiasco. With tickets of 62,50 EUR one way even worst!

      Delete
    22. "...(direct flights from Kiev banned while you were writing this cheerful prognosis or you simply consider direct connections overrated?)...

      And nobody in the world aware of this unique JP's ability to connect Ukraine with the rest of the world? What a visionary move..." :D

      Anonymous@ 6:16 PM +1

      Delete
    23. Yes, Air Serbia comes to that idea first. But not just in Kiev. They will connect Thessaloniki, Athens, Sofia, Bucharest, Prague, Warsaw... with World... at last someone will do that!

      Air Serbia = connection to the World to small airports of Thessaloniki, Warsaw etc.

      Delete
    24. Warsaw is hardly a small airport. ;)

      Delete
  13. At least Adria is expanding and fighting, what is Croatia Airlines doing? Downsizing and giving up on its market. They will not last much longer unless they wake up.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Does anyone have Adria's schedule to Kiev from the last time they flew on this route?

    ReplyDelete
  15. what s today fullmoon again, u guys seem to be in real good mood today again :-)

    don t understand that JP is expanding again to WAW, KBP and PRG. WAW and KBP 2-3 years ago, almost never managed to get loadfactors more than 50% and this even on the CR2. The timings for KBP were also not ideal. The only time KBP was full was for orthodox Xmas. As far as I remember they flew 2-3 weekly to KBP. I think WAW was 4-5 weekly. Later on they decreased more and more until the routes were dead.
    PRG JP has not being serving for a long time.

    also JP has only Transit Connections for ex YU. And who in ex YU Needs flights to PRG, WAW, KBP? maybe the coastal towns of Croatia or BEG. JP has only 1 weekly flight to SPU and BEG has own flights to PRG,WAW,KBP.

    So this will end the same way, the previous approach did.
    JP should Focus on keeping the lines they have busy and profitable plus expand in Pristina. And if they are looking for a seasonal destination than bring BCN back. BCN was running well for years (even with tariffs up to 250-300 EUR and more), except 2012, that s why they most probably cut the route for Summer 2013.

    It s interesting to see how the left wing government is wooing and renewing old liaisons again. Suddenly Russia is becoming a strategic partner for Slovenia, state owned Adria is heading east. And of course if SDS gets back to power, Adrias CEO will be replaced again and dance in step after their commandos

    And in my opinion before they start flying to KBP, they should rather connect LED 2 times weekly (seasonally)

    ReplyDelete
  16. Cestitki za site Srbi..... 5ti A319 na Air Serbia e na pat od Minhen prema Belgrad... Uste ednas cestitki i se nadevam na vakov uspesen proekt naskoro i vo MAKEDONIJA :))

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1507207_10202481063202987_691693816_n.jpg

    Pozdrav svima.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ne se ulizuvajte do tolku. Nema potreba!

      Delete
    2. heheheh klasika Glupka od naseto podnebie ;) pozdrav seljak eden !!!

      Delete
    3. Pozdrav Obedineta :)

      Q: is the concession agreement between SKP and TAV available omline? It does not have to be the original document of course, a digest would do.

      Delete
    4. Didn't have online version - simply the agreement is avail for the goverment - sad but true :)))

      Delete
  17. Just to get back to Kiev routes of JP and JU. JP decision to launch KBP is partly political due to EU's support to Ukraine opposition, very much expressed nowadays. JU's KBP is more staregic move as an extension of Etihad's network.
    Etihad is planing to place an route optimization center in Air Berlin, where Air Serbia and Etihad Regional routes will be handled as well.

    ReplyDelete
  18. OT: Is LX loosing ground in BEG? planned summer schedule as follows ZRH-BEG:
    LX 1412 days 1,3,5,7 (morning flights)
    1416 afternoon flights till end of June only days 5,6,7
    as of 01JUL again daily
    LX 1418 evening flight only day 6 entire period

    in addition the 3 weekly departures ex GVA. but still less in total than previous 2 years with total 14 weekly rotations

    seems that Wizzair ex BSL, double daily JU A319 and Easy/Etihad Regional ex GVA is showing impact

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Edelweiss should be servicing BEG like PRN and SKP. This is a very price sensitive market and their cost structure is much higher than competition. Germanwings flights are also under major attack.

      Delete
    2. No LX-flights from ZRH on Tuesdays? :/

      Delete
    3. another Impact might be codeshare AB/JU to the States plus QR/EY/JU/TK to Middle East and Asia. Don t know how much transit LX flew to ME and Asia in the past

      Delete
    4. LX 1416 is showing daily in Amadeus throughout the whole Summer Schedule

      Delete
    5. Showing double daily ex-ZRH on Swiss website. Don't know where this nonsense comes from.

      Delete
  19. It's not true that WK (Edelweiss) has lower cost structure. They're a full subsidiary of LX thus exchanging crews, planes, ground equipment. The only difference is that WK is a charter airline and contracts with travel agencies from Kosovo and Macedonia can be easily signed than LX. That's all and nothing to do with lower costs.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Checked LX webpage. They still show double daily ZRH entire Summer. Some afternoon flts even with WK A320
    Previous source I had was OAG flight guide. Maybe someone knows more

    ReplyDelete
  21. Interesting is that although JU flies double daily to Moscow and has its best loadfactor on this route,
    SU increased their flights to double daily and still can fill these flights.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not only that but Air Serbia will upgauge one of its daily flights to an A320.
      Aeroflot usually sends its A321, even during the slow season.

      Delete
    2. That's why we (passengers who just want to fly for the best price possible) need Wizz air to Moscow! The demand is more than big.

      Delete
  22. There are two loosers today: Purger and JP.

    ReplyDelete
  23. What is happening with JU flight to DUS. Quite often it gets diverted to Cologne for no apparent reason and gets delayed considerably?!

    JU 325
    AB 575 DUSSELDORF
    (via COLOGNE) 23:25 (16.01.) 01:30 (16.01.) A7 Airbus A319 New time at 01:30

    http://www.beg.aero/passengers/flights.239.html?flightId=244597

    ReplyDelete
  24. DUS has a night traffic ban after 22h so it means if you're delayed you must divert the flight. In this case that is Cologne. About JU's delays nobody really cares anymore. They're rather a rule than exception.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. www.beg.aero can you please provide us with information on where are those delays which have become the norm?

      Delete
    2. I guess you just have to look on BEG website. For example yesterday's flight:

      JU 324
      AB 575
      EY 6029 DUSSELDORF
      (via COLOGNE) 18:15 (16.01.) 20:30 (16.01.) A3 Airbus A319 Odleteo u 20:46

      http://www.beg.aero/putnici/letovi.231.html?flightId=244663

      Delete
  25. No, you're all fools, JU and Etihad can never compete with Adria :D

    ReplyDelete
  26. We always end up in the heated debate regarding OU, JP and JU and as much as it appears to be relevant, in my mind, all those companies are just minuscule players at the moment. Their future is firmly connected with alliances they are connected to.

    What would happen with Adria and Croatia? Well, that depends on what would happen to other Star Alliance members in the region. At the moment, LH longhaul is doing fine, large part of LH shorthaul is being transfered to Germanwings as it was „not well“. Being smart and cautious as they are, LH people acted in timely manner. Swiss is more or less stable but their financial performance is far from stellar. Austrian has been bleeding money for years now. All of those are seriously threatened „in house“ by their fellow Star Alliance buddy Turkish Airlines, which expanded tremendously and is hurting ALL of them on ALL markets East & South of Vienna.

    Adria and Croatia are squeezed in between as none of the before mentioned airlines will be sending any of the passengers their way. LH is focused on LX and OS.

    In a way, JP and OU are in serious trouble as no one actually cares about them. Not their respective governments (i.e the owners!), not the fellow alliance members, and certainly not the flying public as they will gladly go where they can get the most for the buck, hell with any loyalty.

    I just dont see any joint approach between them all and I am sure that LH will be more than glad to kill off both OU and JP in order to save Austrian Airlines and Vienna as a hub. VIE is far more valuable than ZAG and LJU combined.

    Air Serbia is a project, still at the very beginning. OU and JP cannot cope even with their current „family“, let alone the „enemy“ next door. They would have to focus to sort out the family relations first, and only then worry about neighbors (JU) and distant relatives (TK group and A3)

    Kind regards from Novi Sad.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Great post.

      However, I would like to add two things.

      1. Austrian Airlines is actually back in the black and they are growing both in terms of destinations and fleet. This makes them even more dangerous as they are becoming aggressive once again.

      2. Turkish Airlines and Lufthansa/Austrian are ending their code-share agreement in a few months. This means that OU and JP might end up as collateral damage in an upcoming war. We already witnessed how effective Croatia Airlines was when it faced 'hostile' cooperation with Turkish Airlines on the ZAG-IST route.

      So not only do JP and OU have to solve their family issues first but to make things even worse there is a major family bloodbath about to happen.

      Delete
    2. Funny comment about SWISS that you made.

      From the press: Operating profit is on a falling trend, but SWISS is still Lufthansa Group’s most profitable airline

      http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/swiss-is-the-star-in-the-lufthansa-group-starting-to-fade-111609

      Delete
    3. BRAVO EIGHT!!!!

      100% right! Congratulation

      Delete
  27. Ako zanemarimo pogrešne informacije da je Swiss u financijskim problemaima i Austrian u crvenom (jer nije, nego je u crnom), sve ostalo je živa istina.

    Poglavito činjenice:
    1. LH i puletni sa jedne strane, te TK sa druge strane odvlače gro putnika iz ZAG i LJU. To guši razvoj OU i JP:

    2. Lufthansu puca ona stvar za OU i JP, ne pomaže nimalo oko borbe sa kokurencijom u susjedstvu (npr. više letova za OU, bolja suradnja i code-share koje bi rezultirale letovima prema WAW, ARN, DME..., uvođenje interkontinentalnih letova iz ZAG npr. JFK-VIE-ZAG...), a što je to čudnije jer je cijela priča u njihovom dvorištu (Air Berlin, Darwin), i trebali bi okupiti sve snage u borbi protiv toga, pa i ove majušne poput Croatie, Adrije, Dolomita...

    3. Na koncu naša sudbina jest u rukama tih velikih i alijansi koje su oni dizajnirali za svoje potrebe.

    Samo da je pameti, pa da se lavitira između njih samih (malo sa LH, malo sa TK, malo sa nekim trećim izvana, pa da vidiš kako bi Božićni pokloni pod borom bili ljepši, veći i primamljiviji)...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It appears that my words sounded far worse than I intended. That would teach me not to type at 3 in the morning.

      I said Swiss was a stable airline and I used the term "less than stellar" finance, as a focus on their continuous high cost base as a legacy carrier and very little room to risk. It was not my intention to imply they are burning money.

      As for Austrian, it is true that they are in the black now, but as I recall they have had a rough couple of years 2005-2010, than the severe cost cutting was executed and they managed to stop the bleeding but that their profits are still very slim. I may be wrong, though.

      If I am totally off on these points, I stand corrected. One learns something new every morning :)

      Kind regards from Brnik Airport.

      Delete
  28. According to MIDT 12,817 passengers travelled between Zagreb and Ukraine in 2012

    12k is alot !

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually it's not. It's about 35 passengers per day and I am sure most of these people travelled during the summer season. Which means that this number drops to about 15 passengers per day.

      Delete

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