Friday, December 2, 2011

Big setback for Zagreb terminal

New delays for Zagreb’s new terminal
The tender to find who will build and run Zagreb’s state of the art new terminal is likely to fail after four out of the six companies bidding in the process reportedly pull out. The news was reported yesterday by the Croatian press adding that that there is a strong possibility for the entire tender to be terminated. The Croatian government has constantly moved the deadline for the six consortiums in the running to finalise their bids. The deadline currently stands at December 12 with the winning bid to be chosen by March 2012. Furthermore, it is believed that the favourite bid ADC & HAS Airports (Houston Airport) has pulled out. The Croatian government originally claimed that the constant deadline delays were occurring upon the request of the bidders. It also cut down on the terminal’s capacity from the planned 5 million passengers per year to 3.5 million in the first phase of the project. As a result, the price tag of the new terminal has been slashed from 198 million Euros to 190 million.

On Sunday parliamentary elections are to take place in Croatia with the current governing parties set to be punished by voters. Reports suggest that the new government, likely to be made out of the main opposition Kukuriku coalition, will terminate the tender. Last month, Zagreb Airport employees staged industrial action unhappy, amongst other things, that the airport will be foreign run over the next thirty years by the company that builds the new terminal.

The companies thought to be in the running to construct the new terminal are: GMR Infrastructure & Flughafen Munchen (Munich Airport), ADC & HAS Airports (Houston Airport), J&P Avax & Athens International Airport, Flughafen Zurich (Zurich Airport and Turkish airport operator), Seoul Incheon International Airport and the French Riviera Airport Consortium.

49 comments:

  1. It is not that investors don't have interest in Zagreb airport, but incompetent management of Zagreb airport. Just remember that it is same management which did not read legislation (and than find that concession can not be even proceed by present law), which did not notice that building license is not on any more (terminate after 2 years from issue), which delay finish of documentation for several times etc.

    Since June 2011 I stop to fight against concession because I saw that it will not be finished because management is not competent to do that job! Luckily!

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  2. I think that all the necessary paperwork needs to get fixed asap so as to allow for concession to proceed.
    I believe that government and management definitely failed to clearly communicate the set goals and purpose of this concession.

    Public has the right to know and although there had been numerous reports on the look, investment, phases, somehow it all got blurred within last few months - mostly to contradictory information: how much money and in which phase ... and such.

    The strike didn't help either. Especially in communicating the extent of intolerance and aversion to foreign investments.

    Important and positive things somehow got lost in the communication while all the crap surfaced including the sloppy paperwork, possibility of corruptive behavior etc.

    I sure hope the new govn't will clear this confusion by stating why this is good, and what are the goals and under which terms this will be done.

    Seriously, this airport needs this development: operational and infrastructural. ASAP

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  3. Petar, you are completely right! People are just talking serious trash and wrong information because they are not really informed. The tender is actually organized by a government team, not by the management of Zagreb Airport...

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  4. Old and extremely succeed management was unreasonably removed and new management was forced by Government just because one goal: concession. This management did nothing but lazy job on concession and in same time totally postpones all other duties (traffic, new lines, service...).

    Yes, we need new terminal ASAP. That must not be concession and to give strategic resource to hazard foreigner, but model which was used in Ljubljana where Government hold 51% ownership, sell 49% in market, and invest that money + profit (which was on Matkovic time some 40 million kunas) in new terminal and development.

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  5. you are writing wrong infromation. ZAG figures are really good at this time and there are some works under construction right. It seems that you are really not informed.

    And what about Ljubljana?!

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  6. Oooooo yes! I am more than informed. I am totally involved in Zagreb airport!

    Construction? Really which one? USS which was unnecessary spending of money to benefit of future concessionaire! Buying new terminal signs even that “old” one was just 4 years old and were the best of the best quality in World, buying new buses for platform even as “old” did not spend 30% of their exploitation time?

    Good figures? Comparing to what? And because of what? Croatia Airlines did 17% more passengers because of pricing policy that was answer to easyJet competition in same route as Croatia Airlines. Because of that Croatia Airlines lost money but increased number of passengers. What was influence of ZAG management in that? Why we did not see any new line in more than a year comparing to BEG many new lines? Why most of companies cut their frequencies, capacity (smaller planes) and even stop some lines in ZAG?

    Why ZAG airport did have worst financial results in years and they just make it better with forcing bond of Croatia Airlines in last second before Assembly to make Peovic stay in position.

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  7. Just build the faken thing already! Because of a few greedy corrupt and incompetent people the whole country suffers!

    Peter, I wouldn't hold my breath when the socialist and Zoran Mianovic come into power. Last time the Racan government sent Croatia tumbling backwards faster the final Tudjman years!

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  8. On member of CAF who was "member" of potential conssesionar:

    When I first read the documents I nearly fell off the chair. I couldn't beleive how much information they failed to provide and the remaining information not explained properly.

    The initial documents clearly stated that the concession winner will have to "Design, Construct an Operate" a new terminal at Zagreb Airport. In this case everyone understood that it will be their responsibility to design a terminal for 5 million passengers, it was'nt mentioned anywhere that the government had a design nor was IGH ever mentioned in the first phase. When the second phase of the competition began, potential bidders where only then told about the IGH terminal of which a lot of participants raised questions as to why this important bit of information was not mentioned in the initial documents of phase one. They were all misled to beleive that they will design and construct a terminal accordingly, but this was'nt true from the beginning.

    So Peter, still defending Peovic?

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  9. you poeple don't understand that the tender is organized by a government team, and NOT by Zagreb management. Since the government is the owner or majority owner of croatian airports they make decisions and the managements follow these decisions. Ofcourse, since owner is the goverment, politics is playing a big role. You need to understand this.

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  10. Peovic management was forced by Government just because one goal: concession. Government clearly stated that prime goad for Peovic management is to prepare and finish tender for concession!!!!

    Peovic management was preparing documents, and makes all technical duties about concession, not Government!

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  11. hey listen Purger,

    The part of my messaging in which I "defended" Mr. Peovic was in a completely different context. I am not aware nor do I care about technicalities of the contract.
    What's important is that whatever inconsistencies and unclear information gets cleared up - sooner the better.

    I believe that Mr. Peovic and his team worked in a collaboration with the dsignated government team that hired consultant experts. So, at some point I believe all sides should get clear what is to be done.

    I'll say this once and for all. I just want to see the damn thing f-ing move !
    I've been listening and reading about this crappy re-construction since I was in highschool and I am nearly 30 now!

    At this point, I don't care who and what. Just do what's good for the airport, airport business, city of Zagreb and Croatia.

    F..k the socialist unions and surrounding lobbies aka IGH or whatever.
    This airport is more important than them. It's couple of hundered people, among which there are some super lazy asses, vs. the entire country and the region. This almost 15 yr. long crap needs to stop and the new airport needs to get build. PERIOD. NOW.

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  12. YES! Absolutely. But not with concession that is modern colonialism, but with model like Ljubljana airport:

    51% and control of Republic of Croatia
    49% shares and with money from selling shares + ex profit + future profit in next 10 years = to build new terminal

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  13. FR EMA-ZAD next summer, very good news twice weekly

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  14. Purger, you are completely right!

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  15. Sorry Purger - I've seen enough of "domestic" management practices. Since 1964 no one has seriously touched nor modernized the building. A very few cosmetic work was done within last 5 years. Not acceptable.
    And what profits are you talking about ? 4 mil euro profit will take us 30 years to build a new terminal.
    Dear buddy time is not our friend anymore. We have missed way too many chances due to incompetence, mistrust and the fact that the airport is run by worker unions who blackmail every move of the corrupt owner (government) who's officials change every now and then, and really don't give a shit about the airport nor Zagreb nor Croatia.
    The airport should be given in conession to a firm that does airport management as a core business. I am sure they won't let it perform poorly :) Even if it means getting some of the lazy people at ZLZ to work etc. That is good.

    Zagreb airport needs to be saved from ourseleves.

    So please stop babbling about colonialism and the crap like that. Where's your evidence ? Have you seen the contract ? what's so bad about it ? What are the good sides to it ?

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  16. This is sad to see though not unexpected, the new terminal is too long overdue.

    Clearly, corruption is what is hampering Croatia's broader economy and national interest. Sadly, those who are running the corruption are closely linked with politics and the major business and corporations within the country.

    Will we see the corruption stopped, or the new terminal finally built by the winners of this weekend's elections? Likely not... and poor ZAG will remain without a new terminal for a few more years!

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  17. Zagreb airport screams SFRJ by its look. It needs more new!

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  18. Petar:
    How can BEG have very good results without foreign tutor?
    I did not see contract (exempt some parts which are shame) and that is the biggest problem – why can we not see contract? Who is owner of ZAG? Citizen and tax payers, so who can take right of them to see contract?
    ZAG is strategic project of Republic of Croatia. You don't give strategic projects to foreigners! Why? Not to have disaster situation like with BAA and LHR -they like slots and no possibilities to grow because in same time they have less and less traffic and passengers and bigger and bigger profit – that is what we want?
    I heard every day that we are incompetent to rule with our resources, with our land, with our potentials. Like in Apartheid! Who rule my company? Do I have to give it also to somebody else? Yes that is neo colonialism! Make us poor (by war, bank blackmail, support of criminals in our country and than make us think that we are stupid and not capable even to live in our country).

    You ask which profit? Before Peovic profit of Zagreb airport was more than 5 million EUR. In 30 years of concession that is 150 million. Matkovic leaves 28 million EUR in cash. With selling part of terminal (shops, hotel, garage, business center...) that is another 20 million, so all together that is 200 million EUR, more that consessionar have to pay! Without any loan or selling 49% of stocks in Zagreb airport. And without rise of passengers number in those 30 years, which is most unlikely.

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  19. OT:

    beg - sarajevo flights cancelled again, whats going on?

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  20. why are there cargo baku flights to NIS, wouldnt it be better if they go to BEG?

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  21. purger, it seems that you see just one part of the medal. You are comparing Zagreb with Lublana and Belgrade... but, why the hell should Belgrade go with a concession when they do not need it??? Do you know what the capacity of BEG is? The results of BEG have nothing to do with concession or not concession. Are you serious???

    Nobody says clearly that the government would became instantly cca. 200 mil EUR... nobody is mentioning the concession fee... nobody is mentioning that the traffic has to be raised and new companies attracted to be profitable in future. And nobody is mentioning that the airport will be build and that it will stay there. Nobody is mentioning that croat workers will build it. It won't be taken away after 30 years! All Croats and Zagreb people will have benefits from it.

    Purger wrote that he is informed about Zagreb airport. Hey buddy, if you write such crap like the profit under past and current management, than you know very, very little. It seems to me that you don't know what happened to Zagreb airport in the past 10 years.

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  22. last anonymous - I completely agree.

    Profits are only one side of the story. And they weren't even so big.

    Purger,

    If you insist on comparing Zag and Beg, well Belgrade makes 10 x more profit. Why ? 1/2 # of employees. Most services are being outsourced as their CEO nicely explained at the Business Aviation forum last month.
    Also, Beg has built their 5 mil pax building in 1984-87.

    Also, Belgrade as much as it appears successful, really it still hasn't reached its pre war record, which was around 3.2-3.5 ml pax (1986-1988).
    You also cannot compare Heathrow to ZAG. LHR is not growing in slots and pax as they are way too congested. At the same time you have some civil groups opposing the construction of the 3rd runway, due to noise, environment, etc. etc.

    London metropolitan area is probably the busiest in air traffic in the world as there you have Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Lutton, London city airport...I believe a total is around 120 mil pax. Atlanta which is officially the busiest airport in the world handles around 90 mil but has only 1 airport.
    The point, British traffic is saturated and when hit by crisis now, it is logicall that'll be stagnating for some time.

    And you are drawing comparisons betwwen Zagreb and that ? haha... oh boy.

    Zagreb and the whole Sout east region is underdeveloped, especially in air traffic. Traffic will come, but you need proper management.

    Our management, government and worker unions are doing everything but airport business management. And I don't see that change unless someone else changes it.

    As the last anonymous says, this development is good for the country and afterall the airport will stay here.

    It doesn't have feet to run off !

    But the good managing and working practices will finally come.

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  23. I don't know? I think I am only one here that has official data from Peovic and Matkovic to compare...

    Concession fee? 25 million EUR in 20 years. Even SKP will get 45 million in those 20 years as concession fee. That shows how good concession is.

    What about Istria Y? How come that we don't get any concession fee there but we have to pay 5 billion EUR? What about concession in Suncani Hvar, Strabag and Zagreb-Macelj highway, INA refinery etc. etc...

    And all of those are important but not as Zagreb airport as strategic organization.

    Of course I can not compare LHR with ZAG, don’t be child (because you did understand what I want to say) but LHR shows the worst of concession. It shows how concessionaire can raise profit but not what is most important for local community and UK – number of passengers. Who pay those green-groups and groups against expend? By most of annalists it is BAA (sic)!

    What about Varna and Borugas. Why they wait for 6 years for new terminal? What is excuse for their delay? Why even IATA made document that concession for airports is not good way because mostly that just means rise of taxis but not rise of traffic.

    30 years, my friend, is enormous long period in air traffic! 10 years ago alliances were just experiment, LCC were nothing important no one even turn around because of it. In 10 years of concession someone can not just destroy air traffic in Croatia but in same time destroy economy which is extremely connected to air traffic today.

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  24. What official data do you have to compare? You are comparing data, but either you compare wrong values or even you make complete wrong conclusions!

    You said that the tender is not public, but in one other sentence you are writing here data about concession fees and other details? Where do you have all this data if the tender has not yet finished and if it is secret?


    Why are you even comparing other Balkan airports and their cases? You buddy have to know that every airport has its own business case and every airport is different with crucial differences in traffic volume, ownership, masterplans, past and future investments etc. Moreover, you are comparing complete different catchment areas! You should not do this if you write serious.

    And what do you know about Varna and Bourgas? I don't know much, but why are you mentioning them in this post about Zagreb airport? Why do you don't mention hundreds of other airports in Europe or the world then?!

    Concession doesn't mean raising of "taxis" (maybe you mean taxes)! Can you provide us with a link to this document of IATA? Probably there are dozens of other documents that state something pro concessions, so the conclusion is again: either you collect wrong data or you make wrong conclusions. Every airport has its own business case.

    I don't understand that with Istria airports and Strabag???

    In 10 or 30 years, ofcourse, much will happen. Do you really think that nobody knows this?

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  25. Purger - as much as I disagree with your negative attitude I appreciate your input and the fact that you stand by your arguments.

    So, let's develop discussion further as I personnaly wouldn't want to be in a possible misbelief about concession - and that's in case I am missing something big ...

    Could you point us to some references and specific examples other than LHR as that airport is so saturated with traffic that it may not be in their interst to further expand it. Instead their goals may be to work on the "structure" of their income - and if that means more money with the same amount of traffic - well that may just be the goal. Unlike in Zagreb that needs both as LDZA lacks both infrastructure to benefit from other forms of income. And it certainly has potential to grow in number of pax. I don't see why that wouldn't happen, especially if government requested that kind of growth.

    Also, when you bring out those numbers...

    Where did you read on 25 mil euro for the concession fee ? I thought it was something like 200 mil euro + 320 mil euro investment (190 - 1st phase for 3,5 mil pax building, 120 mil the other phases for the expansion of the building to 5 mil pax capacity).

    Let's talk facts, references and opinions.
    I invite you and everyone here to join in. I would like to understand it all better as I'd be very sad not to see LDZA prosper in a long run.

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  26. I mentioned Varna and Burgas because that is one of new case where Fraport did not fulfill promises.

    25 million EUR concession fee was information that was given to media from management of ZAG (1,15 million per year). I am surprised that you know so much about ZAG and so many data and conclusions and than you missed this in media.

    190 million investments is also something sending to media, and that was confirmed to me personally by Peovic. If you was in Esplanade in Air Arena than you can hear my question about it, and not very optimistic answer from Peovic. Later Peovic come to me and we speak for some 15 minutes. On my question “is there possibility that this 190 million would be only investment because of low interest”, he said “that is possibility but I hope that will not happen”. Unfortunately last information even in this blog shows that interest come to just 2 candidates, if even them.

    Data about profit and traffic was giving to me officially during my interview for Aeronautika by Mr. Peovic personally and I have them even today. Mr. Matkovic also gave me data for interview when he was general manager.

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  27. This has become a joke. If cities such as Skopje, Sofia, Bucharest, Budapest, Athens... can all successfully build new terminals then I do not see why such high level of retardness is present in Croatia.
    And do not play the game of the corrupt politicians because the Hungarians, Bulgarians, Romanians or Greeks are not better. Especially the case of the Greeks who though facing a lot of corruption still manage to build, not a new terminal, but a new airport with two runways and 40 kilometers of highway (Attiki odo).

    On the other hand, I do not think that Burgas and Varna should be used when comparing Zagreb. They serve very different markets, Zagreb serves the capital of Croatia where it sees a considerable amount of Business passengers whereas Burgas and Varna are purely for tourism and some low yielding VFR traffic.

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  28. ATH 15 milion pax
    BUD more than 8 milion pax in 2010.
    Please, do nt compare in any way to ZAG as someone before says each aiport has it's own case....thanks.

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  29. well, to be quite honest - no normal airport can expect to progress and attract investors if it has one of the worst indicators of pax per employee. As far as I know LDZA is a champion in doing just that - having 2x as many employees.

    Now that they "blackmailed" the airport management and the govn't (no one wants to have a chaos suh as those we've seen in Greece) to include their ridiculous rights into the contract - well yeah no one will want to do business.

    That's exactly what they wanted as they don't give crap about the welfare of the airport, city nor Croatia as a country.
    Disgusting - I can't stand looking at that barrack of the building any longer.

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  30. My understanding is that some people, such as ZG Airport Unions and thier speakers on this blog, want to cement existing socialist / selfmanagement situation forever.

    Service at the airport, although improved recently, is still amateurish and will stay that way forever.

    Only Houston could improve existing situation with its world class management.

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  31. last anonymous - couldn't agree more.

    Here's something for a change:

    Nice 1973 documentary on Zagreb airport:

    http://jumbo.iskon.hr/dl/0gnx02mlp02jvb4e/

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  32. I guess that some people in Croatia need to understand that government owned businesses are not welfare systems but businesses.

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  33. last anonymous - yes, that's right and we have many examples in the balkan area.

    to blogger with nickname purger, all data you mention is public available in Zagreb Airport's annual report, so please read this annual reports if you want to talk a little bit serious. Everything else mentioned from you is just funny and shows that you don't understand how things work in airort business.

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  34. Sofia and Bucharest doesn't have concession. Budapest airport also don't have concession but it was sold.

    In Croatia I am well known as "un expert"! Hahahaha, congratulations!

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  35. Great to have "croatian experts" on this blog.

    It's a pitty that these self-called "experts" in aviation do not know basics about how things work on their airports. Not to mention that for example they do not know what is going on in the neighborhood, where for example Budapest airport is actually run pretty successfully by a foreign concessionaire. So, Mr. Purger, you are again writing wrong... please check.

    I like Croatia very much and have met a few croatian aviation experts and they are by far better skilled. At least with the english language.

    Despite the negative atmosphere about the public-private tender, I hope that Zagreb Airport will soon find a good concessionaire who will build the new terminal and develope this airport further.

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  36. BUD airport has concession started in 2005 and ends 75 years after, concessionare is BAA. Amount paid was 2,1 billion USD. Pls do not compare with ZAG airport...

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  37. Expert in aviation industry with such English?!?

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  38. BAA BOUGHT Budapest Airport in joint venture 50:50 with Morley Fund Management in 2005. It was not concession but typical buying!!!!
    On 6th June 2007 BAA SOLD!!!! its shares in BUD to HOCHTIEF AirPort Consortium.
    OWNER!!!! (not concessionaire) of BUD are:
    HOCHTIEF 49,67%
    Malton Investment 18,17%
    Caisse de depot et placement de Quebec 18,17%
    KfW IPEX Bank 4%
    Aero Investment 10%

    So, please do not criticize if you don’t know basic facts! You become foolish!

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  39. it seems that rather YOU don't UNDERSTAND basics.

    HOCHTIEF Concessions AG, one of the most famous company dealing with airport concessions, just bought the shares from BAA. Previously they bought 75% of Budapest Airport Kft from the government AND got the right to operate BUD for the next 75 years.

    Earlier, the Hungarian State, former sole owner of the airport, opted for a partial privatisation with the integration of a private strategic partner. In June 2005, the State’s privatisation agency initiated a tender for a CONCESSION. Seventy five percent minus one vote of Budapest Airport Zrt.’s shares were to be given to new private owners. The tender was finalised and the British company BAA, owner and operator of the major British airports, took over the management of the airport company for the next 75 years.

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  40. BUD document (quote):

    "Only one and half years later, in June 2007, there was a change in the management when the new owner of BAA decided to dispose of its complete SHARES and SELL them to the German company HOCHTIEF AirPort and three financial partners."

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  41. yes that is right and that is also exactly what I wrote before.

    But you still don't understand the basics. Maybe you just don't understand because of your very poor english skills.

    Let me try to explain to you again:

    It doesn't matter if it is BAA or HOCHTIEF or anybody else, the airport is privatized through a concession with 75 years length.

    Foreigners are managing now the airport. They are shareholders in the airport company as well, but they got the airport to develope and manage for 75 years.

    If I understood right, your point is that you don't want to see Zagreb airport in foreign "hands". But that is what happened to Budapest.

    "You anderstand nau"? :-)

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  42. I refuse to debate on this level with personal insult and with sentences like "You anderstand nau"?

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  43. this whole discussion went too far off where it should've stayed.

    I suggest/invite you Purger to please continue with discussing what it is that you fear the most in concession ? Specifically...please.
    I also wish others to join in - and perhaps by not using "anonymous" ?

    Also, does anyone have an idea how will the "old" terminal once it becomes old be connected with the new one ? I haven't seen a physical connection via tunnels, railway - nothing.... Hopefully not via airport bus or ?

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  44. Accepting Petar's invitation and joining here with just short observation :

    Generally, I disagree with Purger on most of topics on this blog. Same is now. And unlike plenty of other participants, I think Purger has vast knowledge of civil aviation and perfectly good and honest intentions and wishes for croatian and ex-yu aviation.

    I think the only problem Purger has is that he is mentally still in the era which finished about 20-30 years ago.

    I simply can't understand that someone closely involved in croatian civil aviation TODAY, can accept, and even worse, JUSTIFY AND LEGITIMATE, model of state-controlled and state-owned, overprotected and mismanaged, both airlines and the airports.

    The result of such control and ownership is today's situation in civil aviation in Croatia, which, in my opinion, "works" with some 40% of capacity, and about 60% of potentials are unused.

    And I just hope that starting from today, some new winds will start to blow in both ecomomy and politics in HR, which will finally stop setting barriers and limits for the development of commercial air traffic.

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  45. I have been sitting back and reading these comments but felt I didn't really have much to contribute apart from pulling out my own hair. I think I have to agree with Peter and Rijeka here. Croatia is supposed to be a free market economy and the fact that is does not act like one is hurting the country and her citizens alike. Croatia with its small population but skilled and well educated workforce should be miles ahead of other counties in the region but because some are afraid of 'foreign investment' which is essentially free money, the country is miles behind where it should be today. Another aviation related example of how pathetic the Croatian government can be:
    http://www.croatiantimes.com/news/Business/2011-12-05/23651/Korcula_island_to_host_country%27s_first_water_airport

    These guys have been trying to set something up in Croatia since 2002! and have not given up because they know how successful such an operation can be. It would bring more tourists faster to where they want to go and employ CROATIANS!!!! Just look at the Maldives or Seychelles to see how popular this type of service is.

    I sometimes feel that if Croatia truly opened its economy after the war and did not make it so hard to invest in the country then Croatia would be in a position herself today or in the nearer future to be a large foreign investor in the region and abroad.

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  46. Everyone has it's own opinion but it is unfair of Anonymous to insult Purger on personal level!

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  47. I also support avoiding emotional insults, by any means.

    However, it seems that some insiders have their own personal interests endangered by change of airport operator.

    Others are just trying to discuss / figure out what would be the best interests of ZG Airport and CRO aviation industry.

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  48. Last anonymous - I would agree with this speculation.

    Also, in addition to what Rijeka and Q400 have been writing - protectionistic attitude in regards to opening up economy can't be good as its essentially a form of a passive-defensive approach. I prefer proactive.

    Instead of sitting on our asses and observing which investments are potentially "suspicious" or "corrupt", our economic leadership (and us little people need to support that idea too) should focus more on designing creative and potentially good partnerships.

    So, instead of talking about the extent of how "damaging" the concession can be, we should seek out well designed model which will be fair, and realistic to employees and to the owner.

    We shouldn't fool ourselves - no one's job is and should be sacred, but at the same time it is good to have collective agreements that are reasonable.

    From what I heard, this concession model is planning to install a so called "constant monitoring" principle - in which croatian government may serve as some form of "supervisory board" that will make sure that policy is being geared towards traffic increase to name one point.

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  49. purger don't has comments anymore because he is just writing much on a very large scale of topics on ex-yu aviation blog, but when asked to explain in more detailed or even when warned of faulty conclusions or wrong data collected or compared, then he leaves the discussion just like this.

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