Monday, March 10, 2014

JAT’s 1998 Airbus order cancelled

JAT’s sixteen year Airbus saga comes to an end

After sixteen years, the European plane manufacturer Airbus has approved the cancellation of JAT Yugoslav Airlines’ order for eight Airbus A319 aircraft. The cancellation was finally agreed upon following joint talks between Airbus and JAT’s successor Air Serbia, as well as its part owner Etihad Airways late last month, putting an end to the saga. “Air Serbia cancelled eight A319s originally ordered by JAT in August 1998. None were delivered. However, this order has already been compensated with Etihad Airways' order for ten A320neos in November 2013. Those aircraft are due to be operated by Air Serbia”, an Airbus report, outlining its February order books, states.

JAT Yugoslav Airlines ordered eight A319s in the summer of 1998, in a deal worth 580 million American dollars. The politically motivated order did not suit the airline’s needs at the time. Although JAT deposited over 23.5 million dollars, none of the aircraft were ever delivered. Their arrival was initially delayed by troubles in the region and the imposition of United Nations sanctions onto Yugoslavia, barring the world’s second largest plane manufacturer from delivering the aircraft. Following changes in the country’s political establishment in October 2000, the company was in no state to finance the costly order. Yugoslav Airlines’ initial successor, Jat Airways, as well as the Serbian government, made attempts to revise the agreement ever since without much success with Airbus unwilling to allow Jat to defer the order onto another airline. In 2012 Airbus threatened to sue the Serbian government over the 1998 deal.

JAT pilots pose in front of this test A319 in Belgrade in August 1998 when the order to purchase eight jets of its type was made

Following Etihad’s acquisition of Jat Airways, the national carrier of the United Arab Emirates moved swiftly to resolve the issue. The deposit paid by JAT for the aircraft has been credited toward the pre-delivery payment for ten Airbus A320neos ordered by Etihad late last year which are to be operated by the Serbian national carrier. The new A320neos will be delivered between 2018 and 2020, replacing Air Serbia’s fleet of leased Airbuses currently in operation.

62 comments:

  1. Gde su sada purgerovi komentari tipa:"srbi ostali bez 25 miliona"......

    Konacno neka i ovaj troll ode u proslost.

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    1. Ako pogledas novu Airbusovu listu kupaca i isporuka, videces da Air Serbia sada ima 0 (nula) porucenih A319 i 0 (nula) porucenih A320neo.

      Proslog meseca imali su 8 (osam) porucenih A319 i 0 (nula) porucenih A320neo.

      Dakle, porudzbine A319 vise nema dok porudzbine A320neo nikada nije ni bilo (osim u jednom saopstenju za javnost, ali putnicki avioni se isporucuju onome ko ih plati a ne onome ko napise saopstenje).

      Kako sada stvari stoje, te avione ce Etihad davati u lizing Er Srbiji. Ako cenu tog lizinga umanje za prebijen dug sa Airbusom onda ok. Ako, pak, prebijen dug sa Airbusom iskoriste da sebi spuste cenu kompletne porudzbine A320neo, onda su Srbi jos kako ostali bez 23 miliona.

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    2. ?????
      Purger nije nikada rekao "izgubili". To je totalna neistina!!!!

      Ja sam tvrdio da je u vrijeme Jata to bila glupost i politička odluka koja je ozbiljno gušila Jat (nemogućnost kupovine drugih aviona poput Boeinga), što piše i u ovom tekstu.

      Isto tako sam naglasio više puta, a i u ozbiljnim medijima, da sa Etihadom Air Serbija najviše dobija na zaštiti, te sam odmah naglasio (još daleko prije samog ugovora) da će se vrlo lako riješiti ugovor sa Airbusom kojeg će Etihad uloviti za ja** prvi puta kada naruči avione. Jasno je da Airbus neće staviti u pitanje ugovorčić od 25 milja u kontekstu narudžbe nekoliko stotina aviona.

      OVO SAM NAGLASIO NEKOLIKO PUTA I TO PRIJE NEGO JE OBZNANJEN UGOVOR I KUPOVINA AVIONA OD STRANE ETIHADA.

      P.S.
      No, isto tako sam naglasio da Etihad uvijek može "svoje" avione povući ili ih prenamijeniti (kao ucijenu za produžavanje ugovora nakon 5 godina ili ukoliko izače iz deala), bez obzira što se oni "vode" pod Air Serbiju. Dok god je to Etihadovo vlasništvo dokle oni sa njima mogu raditi što ih je volja 5 do 12, ili čak nakon 12 sati. Naglašavam da u tom svijetlu javnosti (pa ni meni) nije poznat ugovor između Srbije i Etihada u kojem bi se mogla vidjeti obveza Etihada na investiciju u flotu (tko će biti vlasnik tih Airbuseva) i posljedice u slučaju raskida ugovora. I upravo zbog te dvije ekstremno bitne stvari po sudbinu srpskog zrakoplovstva ugovor ne bi smio biti tajan.

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    3. P.P.S.
      I uzgled, zar je trol netko tko se ne slaže sa vašim stavom. No, onda ste i Vi trol. Poglavito što koristite laži u svom komentaru.

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    4. Purgeru, nemoj tako da govoriš. Tačno se sećam tvojih komentara i moram da reći da nisi u pravu.

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    5. P.S. i jedini razlog vođenja porudžbine na Etihadovo ime je zbog toga što bi odvojena porudžbina Er Serbiju koštala mnogo više. A i ako se planovi Etihada obistine 10 A320ica u letnjim mesecima 2018/19/20 neće biti dovoljni za obavljanje svih ruta.

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    6. Purger nije tako što izjavio. On je i na Al Jazeeri izjavio da će Etihad štititi Jat (još se nije znalo da će se zvati Air Serbia) i da će rješiti porudžbinu A319 unutar svoje velike kupnje. Nakon toga je spominjao i zaštitu pred Lufthansom i da se više neće moći desiti da LH natjera JU da prekine neki let ili konekciju.

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  2. Hvala AIRBUS-u, ETIHAD-u i vladi drzave Srbije.
    Posle gotovo cetvrt veka odstranjen veliki kamen oko vrata poreskih obaveznika kao i komercijalne vijacije Srbije. Prava vest za pocetak radne sedmice!
    Rod. Marinkovic, Kraljevo / Sydney

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  3. Mozemo li ovo da shvatimo tako da je Etihad dobio 25 miliona dolara i doplatio da naruci 320neo?

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    1. Mozemo da shvatimo i kao da nas Airbus nece tuziti (naravno dobiti na sudu) da platimo jos 550 mil.
      Sada vise nema prepreka za eventualnu nabavku i drugog tipa aviona (Boing, Bomabardier, Embraer....) u nekoj buducnosti
      Sjajna vest, pozdravljam.

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    2. Mozemo Niko, naravno da mozemo. Koliko ja vidim iz ovog gore texta, onako kako je napisan (ne tvrdim ni ovako ni onako, jer stvarno neznam) ali AirSERBIA nije narucila te 320neo, nego Etihad.

      Da li je moguce da kad avioni stignu, Eithad ih da AirSERBIA-i na lizinig??

      Jel postoji negde definitivna potvrda da ce Ju biti 100% vlasnik?

      Hvala

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    3. Ne postoji. I to jest problem Ugovora jer se ne zna čije će biti vlasništvo tih aviona (ali i druge opreme), te što ako se raskine ugovor. Kome tada pripada imovina, hoće li Srbija tada biti zadužena preko grla...

      No, što se tiće 25 milijuna, pa da su i "poklonjeni" Etihadu to je zanemarivo, sitnica koja je ništa u usporedbi sa štetnosti te narudžbe. Zanemariv iznos na koji se ne treba osvrtati.

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    4. Cek Purger, kako zanemarljiv kad im je cela investicija 4 x toliko za 49%
      Da su ulozili nekemilijarde, onda OK, ali u pitanju je 100mil pozajmice konvertovanih u akcije, zar ne? Ili sam ja barem tako razumeo.

      Ovo drugo sto ti kazes... da tacno, dok ugovor nije javan ili barem pregledan od neke nezavisne komisije, mozemo samo da nagadjamo.
      Moguce je da je kompletna imovina JAT-a bila nemerljivo veca od investicije pa onda 25mil nista ne znaci, ali ja to stavrno neznam.

      A ako mislis na klauzule o odsteti u slucaju raskida ugovora, e to je onda druga prica. tu moze svasta da se stavi. To moze Srbiju da JAKO puno kosta ako stvari krenu naopako. Yu se slazem.

      Nadajmo se samo da nece ;)

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    5. Mozemo da shvatimo (izuzev ko ne moze ili nece) da je AIR SERBIA kupila
      10 Erbasa nove generacije kroz dill ETIHAD AIRWAYS-a sa proizvodjacem Airbus-a. Posto se ponesto razumem u avio inzenjering, letenje, aerodrome..., lepo bi bilo kada bih neko izracunao po kojoj ceni bi drzava Srbija platila avione da nije Etihada. Dali je razlika veca od 25 mil. evra za 10 Erbasa NEO. Svako zna ko je u svetu komercijalnog vazduhoplovsva da je suvlasnik AIR SERBIA i (mnogih drugih) ETIHAD vlasnik vise od 100 Erbasovih aviona. Taj broj raste. Vas koji ste se uplasili da
      novac poreskih obaveznika Srbije ne prisvoji, izmanipulisu ili... Arapi. Stose toga tice, mene okupiraju misli da mi vracamo dugove koje dobijamo na vreme, do zadnje cente. Da ljudi u Srbiji
      se UVEK trude da budu LJUDI. Sto se Arapa tice, u ovom i mnogim drugim kappa dole njima sa svima koji drzi do etike, profita, odnosa, digniteta. Slobodna nam je volja, a ona nam daje
      mogucnost izbora da budemo ljudi. Uz pozdrav budimo iskreni, trudimo se...
      Rod. Marinkovic, AME. Kraljevo/Griffith

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  4. Off topi (sorry):

    Whats with the green train?
    Wasn't a frequent flyer when this pic has been made (suppose late 70ties - mid 80ties).
    What was its purpose?
    I know of the blue train though but it didn't have anything to do with aviation.

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    1. green train used to go between Zagreb and Ljubljana on a daily basis, and during summer from Zagreb to Pula. Right now Zagreb Ljubljana motorway has taken much of the passengers that used to travel with the green train, There are calls to reinstate Zagreb-Ljubljana train service with Pula being added in summers, HZ is considering the idea, they just ordered 44 brand new trains worth $285 million, 18 supposed to be used for local and the rest for regional transport http://www.railwaybulletin.com/2014/02/croatias-hz-awards-train-contract-to-koncar

      And entire HZ railtrack network is getting an upgrade with main corridors getting done first. Speeds on Zagreb - Ljubljana tranche is 160kmph with max speed of 200kmoph on certain sections, but record speed of 187kmph was achieved by HŽ 1142 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/H%C5%BD_1142_series.jpg locomotive in late 80s and early 00s. new trains are all 160kmph train sets with emu's having maximum speed of 200kmph. So there might be a service Zagreb Ljubljana by 2017.



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    2. This train had operated twice daily NONSTOP between main railway station in Ljubljana and railway station Velika Gorica, which is only 2-3 km from Zagreb Airport. JAT buses used to wait at Velika Gorica station, taking passengers directly to Zagreb airport terminal building. Train had JAT catering, and the service had its flight number. Ride was complimentary for JAT pasengers heading to the flight or coming from the flight. Other people could use the service as well but such price was very expensive and there were almost no P2P passengers.

      At that time, JAT NONSTOP international destinations from Zagreb were New York, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Montreal, Toronto, Cairo, Algiers, London, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Gothenburg, Amsterdam, Brussels, Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Frankfurt, Munich, Stuttgart, Berlin, Prague, Warsaw, Zurich, Barcelona, Madrid, Paris, Lyon, Milano.

      The train service was predominantly for Slovenian passengers, who always had good business ties worldwide, and the best purchase power within former Yugoslavia, but Zagreb had much more flights and destinations then Ljubljana.

      Alike service at the time existed in Germany by Lufthansa, Italy by Alitalia and some other european countries.

      These were the best times of ex-JAT; rent-a-car services, hotel accomodation in its own hotels and several other products were offered then, punctuality of services was heavily improved, new most modern plane types introduced or just to be introduced, new destinations planned and opened, with FULL PROFITABILITY, and with NO STATE SUBVENTIONS, and JAT was about to become REALLY one of the most important players in Europe.

      And than, at that time, one man found out that "Niko ne sme da vas bije !!!

      What happened later, we know!

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    3. Just forgot to say that this "air" train operated in 1986 - 1988.

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    4. Great post. If only youcould skip the last sentence

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    5. Thanks for the replies- sounds very professional.
      i know that Lufthansa offers such service 4 many flights 2 and from Frankfurt, probably other cities as well... might b they copied it from JAT.
      but a nice story anyway, + didnt know that Zagreb used to have intercontinental connections back then... different story nowadays :(

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    6. Well, Jat was still offering some possibilities with Deutch Bahn, not dedicated trains, but when buying Jat ticket you could buy a DB train ticket.
      http://www.airserbia.com/en/home/main_menu/special_offer/avionom_i_vozom.html
      Don't know if it still exists.
      I think AF is also doing something along those lines, if I remember correctly there is a TGV from CDG to Brussels.

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    7. Jat was always subsidised by the Yugoslav government and I'm not sure that it was ever profitable.

      In saying that, it was probably never meant to be profitable like many state airlines at that time.

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  5. Wait who is going to be the owner of the NEOs?

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    1. Well I noticed that every news item I have read regarding Etihad and Air Serbia in aviation magazines from around the world have stated that Etihad will lease the A320s to Air Serbia.

      What sounds a bit alarming is that if the 23.5 million was credited to Etihad and if they still effectively lease the aircraft to Air Serbia than this money is lost to both Air Serbia and the Serbian tax payer forever.

      Was this a part of the "secret deal" and shouldn't at least half of the 23.5 million be credited to either Air Serbia or the Serbian government as per the partnership split agreement.

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    2. Ooups, sorry I posted the same question above without reading what you guys wrote. Sorry

      If this is the case, than there is no secret deal, why would it be. This was on JAT's books and Etihad saw it as an oportunity.

      Also, $23mil is not the same in 1998 and 2013.
      If it was paid as a % of the total order, than today its worth much more than $23mil.

      Why I said no secret deal Q400, is because this whole issue was so widely publicised over the past 15 years no one can argue that they did something secretly.
      What we can say is that they might have tweaked the story so we don't notice right away whats going on ;)

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    3. Basically, Etihad made Air Serbia dependent on it. If anything was to happen with the deal, JU is doomed

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    4. JU was doomed either way. If Etihad didn't sign the deal, I seriously doubt JAT would be flying now, unless the government sunk millions of dollars in another futile attempt to keep it.

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  6. It looks like Varna has been postponed.
    http://www.aviokarta.net/vesti/2336-air-serbia-odlaze-za-maj-pocetak-letova-ka-varni/

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    1. "Iz srpskog nacionalnog avioprevoznika nisu izdali nikakvo saopštenje iako su karte za ovu destinaciju u prodaji već nekoliko meseci."

      Again? Nemjee how much money will JU loose by postponed of Beirut and Varna, rerouting passengers, image, compensations...

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    2. Only the finance department knows how much this will cost. I guess it will be cheaper to postpone it than to launch it on time.

      In my opinion, one of the problems is the fleet. Though the re-introduction of YU-ALP will help improve the situation in the airline, we should not forget that this aircraft will also need to go to the Netherlands in order to get the new livery. In other words, the relief will be only temporary. I think the management wants to start off the summer season with the whole fleet ready; they can't do this if they need some aircraft to operate the new routes (ie Varna).
      On the other hand, the Airbus birds are not all in Belgrade. This has forced the airline to postpone the retirement of the Boeing fleet. At this point, routes such as Skopje, Tivat, Sarajevo..., are operated with the B737-300 which is just too big. Atr-72 is the perfect aircraft for these destinations, the only problem is that there aren't enough to operate all of the destinations mentioned before. Podgorica and Skopje are the only destinations in ex-YU where a jet aircraft is justified- the former because of both cargo and passenger demand while the latter because of cargo (very often a lot of it is sent via Belgrade).

      Air Serbia should have five Atr-72 this summer but realistically they should have at least 8... in my opinion.

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    3. Are they trying to procure any additional ATR?

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    4. So why AirSERBIA is not ordering more ATRs?
      Is current ATR fleet maintained in BEG?
      If they are, seriously, why not order or lease if need be another 5,6,7...
      Does anyone know?

      It seems logical, even to me, a total amateur in avio business, but maybe there is a legitimate reason why management believes they can get away with 4-5 planes...

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    5. Well, they need to consolidate their operations before growing any further. I guess it will be tight with five Atrs but they will manage it somehow. They currently operate only three.

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    6. What I meant is, why are they chasing the 3rd A320 or this or that if they are lacking small turboprops that much.

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    7. Well, they can make much more money with the A320s, that is on the routes where they can fill them. This will free up some A319s which will be used on routes where Atrs could be deployed (SKP, SKG...). Since we are talking about the summer season here, filling the A319 on regional routes should not be a problem.

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    8. I think that in the long term, ATRs are really important because they allow for greater frequency and more flexibility with destinations. They are also important because they are needed to feed any longhaul flights JU might do in the future. Tarom has a good system with their 9 ATRs.

      Every good transit airline has good regional feeds.
      Lufthansa- Lufthansa Regional
      Delta- Delta Connection
      Air Canada- Air Canada Express
      United/Continental- United Express
      Alitalia- Alitalia Citylinter
      Air France- HOP!
      KLM-KLM Cityhopper

      Air Serbia needs more ATRs to feed the hub if they want to become a serious regional transit airline. Five ATRs aren't enough. They need at least 10+. Even Tarom has 9 ATRs.

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    9. I will remain fascinated and will keep commenting on how some people here DARE comparing Air Serbia with Lufthansa, AIr France, KLM, Delta and United, or Belgrade airport with Frankfurt, London or Singapore.
      Comm'on Aleksandre, maybie you are really good and positive guy, but some more common sense and a touch of feeling for reality, that's definitely what you lack...

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    10. ^Sorry I am losing my patience, but do you really think I am so stupid that I see no difference between those leading airlines and JU? I only notice that JU is trying to implement a similar business model as those airlines, but on a tiny scale compared to those. Have you not noticed that JU is now trying to be a transit airline, or are you so blind?

      Stop trying to instruct others to see "reality". I don't need your advice. The reality is that JU is trying to become a transit airline for South East Europe, and if you cannot see it, I don't know what to say to you. Whenever anyone says anything good about JU (yes, there are a few good things), people like you must attack it so others may know that JU is the worst airline ever. Worst than all other airlines, including all other Ex-Yu carriers and even worse than the old JAT.

      We are fans of JU, and what are you? You have so much time that you "will keep commenting on how some people DARE" compare Air Serbia to Lufthansa, etc. Do you really have so much time? Mate, your life is so sad if you have nothing better to do.

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    11. In perfect situation Air Serbia would need at least 10 ATR`s to completely fulfill its business strategy to become a true transit oriented regional leader.

      It would be deployed on:

      - Vienna
      - Sofia
      - Varna
      - Skopje
      - Banja Luka
      - Sarajevo
      - Ljubljana
      - Thessaloniki
      - Budapest
      - Bucharest (if not on A319)

      By applying the same schedule to all regional routes with early morning arrivals to BEG prior to the first departure rush, they will manage to feed the morning rush hour and tremendously improve they LF.

      I believe JU management is aware of it... Hopefully they manage to lease more ATR`s...

      As Nemjee said, sending B733 to regional routes is partially responsible for low LF.

      Hopefully we see improvement in the upcoming months

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    12. Dare to dream! I was at Dubai Airport in early 80's when it was primarily a refueling stop for Europe-Asia-Australia flights. They dared to dream, a lot of people said "how dare they!" and look at Dubai and Emirates now!

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    13. "Even Tarom has 9 ATRs."

      TAROM is twice as big as JU. So it is not "even Tarom", but JU goal can be to come to TAROM level in near future.

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    14. Belgrade airport should first add some more bus gates before Air Serbia even considers adding more Atrs. The current two are definitely not enough. If there is no space under the A gates then maybe they should consider adding some under the C ones?

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  7. Belgrade airport yesterday:

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.66932144644481­­1.1073741838.100001008850604&type=1&l=0d7c1aa729

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    1. link brings up this message:
      "This content is currently unavailable"

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    2. It is available:

      https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.669321446444811.1073741838.100001008850604&type=1&l=0d7c1aa729

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    3. No Turkish A333?

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    4. second link works fine now.
      Thanks

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    5. @Anon 6:30PM

      No, this is the 16:30-17:30 bank. Originally the 330F from Misrata was supposed to pick-up the cargo around that time but the A330-300 took it in the morning instead.

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  8. Love the photo in the news. That was a promotional postcard by JAT when they ordered the A319. On the back it says "Airbus A319 - avion za 21 vek". Really amazing you managed to dig that one up admin. Well done.

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    1. I love the political connotation. The EU halo above the aircraft. The article is right that it was a political order. Yugoslavia wanted to get into the EU's good books that year and the EU relaxed sanctions. It all went downhill after but Airbus milked the deal so well. Knowing the political significance they ballooned the price

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  9. on the side note, it's interesting to know what the real price tag was per one A319 in 1998 vs today price?

    I mean, the order for 8 Airbuses come close to $600milion and the recent order of 10 A320neo's was a $1Billion, or $100 million per jet.

    Quite a difference in cost increase over some 15-16 years:)

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  10. OT:

    Does anybody know what is Transaero 737 doing in BEG right now?

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    1. Probably for JAT Tehnika. They get their maintenance done there.

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  11. Well we know that ETIHAD's "investment" so far is like 40 million $ and "support" and "supervision" of Air Serbia. I could bet that the 40 millions are exactly those from the Airbus-deal that our negotiators were not able to get back (with some interest rates of course). So if you ask me, Mr. Hogan has invested exactly ZERO ETIHAD's own money into the Air Serbia project. And now you can call me trol ! That's what they did with Air Berlin who is forced to sell the "chairs under their employees" asses in order to pay back the loan they have received from ETIHAD. ETIHAD works under the hedgefonds principle.

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    1. You are such a majmun ... Airbus nor Boeing do NOT refund PDP's.. once paid, that's it .. you either go with the order or you lose your money - simple as that. There is no refund. So your assertion about EY using the airbus money to fund the initial operation of JU, is the sort of talk that comes out of the mental hospital ... I suggest you get back in there before you do harm to yourself ...

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    2. Oh really? And you are the legal consultant of Airbus and Boeing or what? There are different ways of handling aircraft orders! You know. What for did Airbus negotiate about with the former government if this was a non-refundable prepayment???? If the deal with 170 million € taxpayers money ( that's what the bill is one Serbian side) the people have right to know about the agreement and contract signed with Etihad. I just know that Mr. Hogan is washed with all waters and just ask any Air Berlin employee what dirty tricks they use to squeeze out the money out of the company! I am not a hater, not a former JAT employee, just someone with common sense and some knowledge about aviation.

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    3. Dude, for the record, I work for one of the major aircraft leasing companies in the world. Hence, I know how these things get cut. As for your common sense and your aviation knowledge - seeing aircraft arrive and take off doesn't count ... You should also avoid posting comments when your English is so abysmal .. write it in Serbo-Croat if you cannot articulate it in English because you come across as such a retard. And one other thing to add, since you are such an aviation expert - Airbus had a legally binding agreement with the Govt of Serbia for them to purchase aircraft. The fact that they didn't move forward with the order, could have cost the Serbian taxpayer dearly - somewhere in the vicinity of $600m for breach of contract. And still, they wouldn't have had any new aircraft. I actually don't care one way or the other about EY or JU - but I can tell you this, you should be kissing EY's arse for getting the Govt of Serbia off the hook. Had they not have come in and used their leverage to retrieve not only the PDP's, but to have Airbus agree to withdrawing their legal suit against the Govt, then all Serb taxpayers would be paying for this .... What a major lottery ticket win for the Govt and Serbian taxpayers ...

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  12. Even the hedge fund principle is better than pure money burning - which was the core principle of Jat.

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  13. We will see how much money Air Serbia will "burn" with load factors of 53-54%, aircraft and crews leased. As far as I am concerned I am convinced that the money for the "investment" is taken from the Airbus deal and later the losses will be covered from the airport concession given to ETIHAD. I would stress out, that if the SNS government hands out the airport without tender to the Arabs, this would be a breach of several laws and a major scandal. I am sure that many international companies would be interested in Belgrade Airport, so there should be a fair and transparent tender process! By the way the airport is profitable and fills the budget of the Republic, but we Serbs love to sell a cow to be able to buy milk. Think about it!

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    1. Majmun no. 2 - read the above response to anon at 2.20pm ... the only thing that you should be "convinced" of, is the shite that you are talking ....

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  14. War mongering of Tudjman and couple more people was what was next after that nobody can't beat you...

    ReplyDelete

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