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| SkyGreece Airlines likely to suspend all operations |
Services between Toronto and Zagreb are likely to be terminated as operator SkyGreece Airlines begins cancelling flights, with rumours circulating the carrier will suspend all operations. SkyGreece Airlines’ services to and from Toronto on Wednesday and Thursday have been cancelled "due to operational reasons", a week after its flights out of Pearson Airport were delayed for four days. A total of 178 passengers travelling from Zagreb to Canada’s largest city yesterday were left stranded at the airport with no accommodation, food or alternative transport offered by the embattled carrier. The fledgling airline's Twitter and Facebook accounts have also been taken down, sparking rumours that it was ceasing operations entirely. A recorded message from the airline said that its Wednesday Athens - Zagreb - Toronto flight has been cancelled, as have two flights between Toronto and Greece via Budapest. Staff at Toronto Airport tsaid the airline was grounded because it hadn’t paid its landing fees to the airport.
Officials from the airline have been unreachable. However, earlier this morning, co-owner Bill Alefantis said the leisure carrier would issue an official statement on its future later today. A Facebook group called “SkyGreece Troubles” has been set up for stranded travellers to discuss their experiences online, with many complaining the airline has not responded to their requests for information. SkyGreece Airlines launched operations on May 22, while its one weekly seasonal service from Toronto to the Croatian capital was inaugurated a month later. A 274-seat Boeing 767-300ER is used on the route. The flights have proven popular with both holidaymakers and those visiting family and relatives. A total of seventeen rotations were to operate to Zagreb until October 7, with some 4.500 passengers booked on these flights.
Earlier this summer, SkyGreece’s Regional Manager for Croatia, Mark Mocnaj, told EX-YU Aviation News that the carrier was evaluating the possibility of extending its services to Zagreb and even introducing flights to other cities in the region. “We are monitoring demand and evaluating the possibility of extending and renewing our service and frequencies for this year and next to possibly even include new routes to the region. This, however, will only be announced in Q4 of this year”, Mr Mocnaj said at the time. SkyGreece is a Greek-registered airline, founded by a group of Greek entrepreneurs, with its offices in Toronto, Montreal and Athens. Some 150 of SkyGreece’s employees have come from Greece’s former national carrier Olympic Airways. The Toronto – Zagreb route marked the resumption of transatlantic flights from the Croatian capital after a seven year hiatus.
Comments
With almost double the number of passengers and a strong national airline, Belgrade's predispositions for transatlantic flights are miles ahead that that of a relatively small airport like Zagreb.
And what are Belgrade's prepositions, since many other countries in the neighbourghood don't have transatlantic flights? Tourists, diaspora, "the big leader - najjaci smo u regionu - Vucic"?
Have you even read what you copied and pasted? As I already wrote, the predispositions are double thew number of passengers as compared to Zagreb, and a strong national airline (najjaca u ex-YU regionu).
But you can't have a transatlantic schedule with only one aircraft whether that is a 767 or an A330 if you catch my drift... ;)
It is a Canadian company, based in Toronto and with local owners.
Their bank accounts are in Canada and something like 90% of their passengers are from Canada and travel to Greece, Croatia, Hungary.
They are just crooks!
If you can't make money during July and August how are you gonna support year round service?
Reality is that airlines, especially the new ones require intensive capital expenditure to operate and they have to be masters of managing very thin margins.
Look at Etihad, they have just been given another 2.5 billion dollar cash injection from the Emirate government so how will a new start up survive?
It's like the old saying, to make 1 million in aviation you start with 5 million.
Everyone would have lost money here from the unfortunate passengers to the operators as well as the airports involved.
A positive from this is that loads gave a good indication that seasonal charters could be viable possibility in the future.
Without state subventions no airline trafficking Zagreb would survive
All that of-course IF its competitors with hubs in FRA, MUN, VIE, FCO, IST, ZRH don't just lower their prices and squash AirSerbia's profit margins.
ako se uradi dobar marketing i dobra cena Avioni ce uvek biti puni i Holandjana , Svedjana , Poljaka i Rusa.
INN-NS
Red my answer. I didn't say it guarantees successful flights. I said its a good predisposition for them.
Let's wait and see. With strong inter-alliance backing and ability to step in, one aircraft could suffice to start off with, but definitely not in the long run.
INN-NS
Lufthansa Group transports thousands of passengers on this market every day. They won't spend millions of euros in fare dumping just because a new competitor is trying to capture the bottom 2% of the market.
All of the frequent and premium passengers will continue flying the same airlines they already have been flying, and only the most price sensitive passengers, the ones most airlines aren't even interested in, might be convinced to ride Air Serbia just to save some money.
Empty legs in beginning of rotations from Greece and Croatia as no one goes to Canada over summer and then empty legs from Canada to Greece/Croatia in the end of season when all pax is going back to Canada.
They could save some bucks if they listened
Znaci po tom sto si napisao, bilo bi ok da imaju jedan avion ako imaju regionalni feed?
I don't understand why you are positioning Air Serbia like some kind of a "bofl" airline. I believe that in today's economic climate, at least 70% of European travelers are price sensitive. Secondly, the popularity of JU's transatlantic flights will also be determined by its times and connectivity potentials.
I am quite confident that the final product will be en par, if not better, than Lufthansa's, service wise. If that comes at a lower, dumping rate, thats a bonus for me. As an end user, I don't really care about financial ethics. I want to get the best quality at the lowest price. And, I'm sure Air Serbia will live up to my expectations, especially during he introductory phase of these transatlantic flights.
http://new.airserbia.com/en-RS/complaints-compliments
How can JU compete with lufthansa? Lufthansa has access to hundreds of flights per day across the pond across their alliance. They have a codeshare with both United and Air Canada, so they can take you to hundreds of airports in USA and Canada. They have people from every continent enrolled in their frequent flier program. They have huge corporate travel contracts. They are known throughout the world. Their business and first class is beyond anything ASL can even dream of achieving.
Literally the only aspect that Air Serbia can compete on is price, and nothing else.
Why isn't the Croatian media all over this, asking for and demanding accountability ??
What a joke of an organisation. The real issues in Croatia are not ZAG airport or even OU, rather, the poor oversight being provided by the regulator.
It will have substantial expenses establishing itself in the US and maybe Canada too.
They also need passengers who buy business class seats and Economy seats of 1000$ plus.
I beg to differ. Firstly, I clearly stated that the the differentiation will be based on quality of the service and price, not on the size of the fleet, code-share partners, airport coverage, etc. As it stands, Air Serbia is already offering a far superior service compared to Lufthansa, on Euro-Mediterranean flights.
We can't judge the product before it's launched, but I'm sure since Air Serbia's short-haul offering is already better than Lufthansa's current one, I see no reason for that standard not to carry through to their long-haul service level, as well.
Thank God they changed their mind in the end.
Lufthansa is so far ahead that they realize that onboard product has little effect on people's choice of airlines when flying intra-Europe. This is why Ryanair is so successful in Europe even with Business travelers.
Considering that Lufthansa's first class gets driven up to the plane in a Porsche, I don't think that Air Serbia's premium offering has any possibility of ever reaching that level. Of course, I doubt Air Serbia would even have any premium offering other than say 20 business class seats because Serbia and our region doesn't have much premium demand.
The way it can work is shown by ČSA for example: they have one A330 and they use it only for the PRG-ICN route. It is leased from their strategic partner Korean Air (based in ICN), so if the aircraft for whichever reason drops out of the rotation Korean can quickly provide a replacement from its hub.
These cowboy startups in the Balkans are really a disgrace and should never receive AOC without material guarantees that would protect the customers.
Ryanair would be successful anywhere in the world. Once again, as I mentioned initially, price sensitivity is the primary driving factor in majority of passengers choice of airlines. Not, as you said, of 2% of the people traveling.
It will be a business class setup, to start off with. But, as has been discussed here over and over again, the spread between regional and connecting passengers will be pushed towards an equilibrium, which would pull both lower income regional ones and higher income connecting ones.
As for the Porsche, its a local brand in DE. We can drive ours in a Fiat lux from Kragujevac. ;)
Make all the points you want to make, but please don't start by telling a lie - it undermines the rest of your arguments or criticisms, however valid they may be
They have much to learn about joining the EU and embracing European values of fair play ....
First class is not needed in many markets including this one, for example Air Canada does not have first class at all. IFE plus wifi will exist on A330 in economy. On short/med haul IFE is not needed when free streaming entertainment is going to be offered via wifi. Last time I checked Ryanair was not an option for my business travel in Concur, while Air Serbia was. Lufthansa long haul biz class seat varies by plane and some are not up to date. Their service is professional but generally not as warm and attentive as Air Serbia's.
I didn't say that only 2% of passengers are price sensitive. I only said that Air Serbia could at most capture around 2% of the South East Europe and Middle East to North America market because of how limited their network is. Even this much would be a huge achievement after a long time of huge investment and expansion.
AnonymousAugust 27, 2015 at 4:44 PM
Sorry I meant to write "dedicated business lounge" instead of "dedicated business class". I was writing fast because I am doing some work in between so I hope you will excuse that slip.
The topic of that post was weather Air Serbia is superior to Lufthansa NOW, not down the line. Right now online check in limited, there isn't any IFE in economy, and no business lounge.
Concur is the only way for people to travel on Business? Huge corporations have separate contracts with the airlines directly.
Yes you did say that. This is what you wrote:
They won't spend millions of euros in fare dumping just because a new competitor is trying to capture the bottom 2% of the market.
So, "fare dumping" refers to the final product price, which it affects directly.
Air Serbia's on-board product is better than Lufthansa's on Euro-Mediterranean routes, NOW. It is what it is.
2 LH nema stjuardese kao ASL .
3 332 imati i IFE i WI-FI .
4 Ljudi iz LH sami su mi rekli kako ASL ima zajedno sa TK najbolju Bizinis klasu .
5 Nije nikakav problem nabaviti koju S klasu ili BMW 7 za takve potrebe.
6 Niko ni netvrdi da ce ASL imati vise putnika od LH .
7 I mogu vec sad reci da e biti jako popularna.
INN-NS
I don't understand but I can assure you that I strongly believe that price is the strongest motivation these days when choosing an airline for majority of people who buy their own tickets. I have written that on this blog many times.
AnonymousAugust 27, 2015 at 5:24 PM
Yes Air Serbia's onboard product is better but Air Serbia isn't superior to Lufthansa.
Word on the inside is that they will also be opening their new Business Class lounge in 2 weeks time. So that is also a box ticked off.
On-line checkin is being slowly rolled out, now covering 70% of their network.
They will also shortly be "switching' on their onboard wi-fi - something which few airlines in the world are offering, certainly when it come to European carriers and others in this part of the world.
Remember, these guys have not even been in the chair for 2 years, so a lot has been done in this time, when you compare what the airline didn't do over the past 20 years.
Give credit where credit is due.
Now they have to try and fix the mess at BEG airport with baggage. Hopefully a new owner of the airport will do much to fix the antiquated baggage system that is still in place today and causing them all the grief ....
+1
Oh yeah I agree that Air Serbia has a lot of potential. If they can unroll online check in across their entire network, open that lounge, get the WiFi working, and whatever else I forgot which they have announced so far, they would be among the best airlines in Europe. No doubt about it.
And then the only thing holding JU back would be BEG. Some solution needs to be found about the baggage issue. BEG should also improve the passenger experience to be more in line with the most liked hubs but I don't think that is as critical yet.
Then the only last thing that I think JU would need to become a really good carrier is to add a fleet of 70-100 seat jets because the connectivity right now needs improvement. More destinations need to be double daily.
But every improvement needs to be done while keeping costs as low as possible. I keep hearing that currently Air Serbia's costs are similar to Easyjet's. If that is true, then that is very good.
As far as ASL and its success on NA flights what they need in my opinion are three things: cheap prices, strong local feed and strong codeshare in NA. LH wins outright in last two. Because if ASL flies YYZ-BEG and I live in Ottawa, without the local codeshare partner (AC or WJ) they have no chance in hell.
If only Air Serbia could push it's way into some joint venture.
Ja sam samo rekao da mogu dosta mladih i lepih stw da nadju i to ce biti svakako faktor da neko upamti ASL.
AC ce biti partner ASL kao i sto je EY .
A u JFK kao i EY sa B6.
INN-NS
AirSerbia is a pet project, not entirely commercial in nature, to put it politely... and as such it will have business twists and turns not entirely commercial in nature. We all know it. So what is the big deal? If the owners want to make an airline like Swiss, they have to start from somewhere.
People keep mentioning Lufthansa... well, most things are true, they are a behemoth of an airline, gazillion flights, deep pockets for fare dumping... but so what? Should all other airlines just cuddle and die? I remember the days when this entire region was LH Group playground (before Wizz, New JU, ME3) and I do remember their fares to Europe, North and South America. I do not want those times to return.
I also heard the story about their unit cost being comparable to Easy. If that's really the case it's great and will help them contain losses at the beginning big time because they are going to have to be cheap first year or two until they establish themselves.
I expected for SkyGreece to go bust, I've said it before flights too off, don't expect too much from them, it is good they're coming but I'd be surprised if they are around 1 year from now.
totally agree, and it proves Zagreb is in demand, with almost all flights booked out and Zagreb alone taking 170-200 pax each turn, that is a good reference for the future.
Mozda ipak budu imali cs sa AC zato sto imaju sa EY .
INN-NS
INN-NS
Extrapolate these numbers and you'll get around ~320 000 pax, that's not a small number, 650 000 in both ways.
I think there's plenty of room for growth,/
its a Canadian company with Canadian issued certificates, they applied for flights to Zagreb, what is so difficult to understand.
Croatian Authorities aren't responsible for foreign carriers, they have no authority over that, all CAA can do is make sure operator has valid certificates and complies with Croatian and Canadian laws.
Air Croatia and Dalmatian air were never serious outfits, one never took off to start with, the other took off but is UK based outfit with dodgy history and past.
Croatia is in the EU and in retrospect can't forbid any EU based aircraft operator from establishing flights out of Zagreb, sorry to burst your bubble but that's how things are and why Croatian Government and CAA couldn't do much, and still can't!!!
Indeed, no authority except to deny Sky Greece to fly to Croatia.
It's quite easy to grasp.
so Rouge would be the best solution.
And, it is pretty much in this order, with schedules/timings/network, dictating about 80% of the decision. It might surprise you to know that, but this is a fact, with price being one of the last criteria. I know, because i do this for a living working as a travel manager in a US MNC.
In your example, price is a bigger consideration for leisure travellers and SMEs.
Therefore, no need to make sweeping statements like 99% of travellers for business base their decision on price. Just call any of the big TMC's such as Amex Travel, CWT, HRG or BCD and they will confirm how wrong you are.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1544001832480581.1073741855.1406571032890329&type=1
Troskovi i problemi su bili deo starog jata. Najveci deo ulaganja u Er Srbiju je pokrivanje dugova koje je napravio jat i za koje nije kriva Air Serbia.
Hold your horses. From Toronto site CP24 today, Aris Sideratos, the owner of travel agency SkyWay Tours on why was SkyGreece popular:
"We were skeptical from the beginning but on the other hand if somebody, a customer, walks into your office and wants to fly with SkyGreece because the prices were very, very affordable compared to other airlines"
Very, very affordable. So affordable that airline went bust in couple of months. Use more sustainable prices and see if all flights will be booked, then draw a conclusion.
As for FF, Canadian biz passengers prefer if employers not take away their earned award miles and more importantly, status/lounge access, from them! Employers and travel providers mostly managed to force use of corporate-issued credit cards (you won't get refund unless travel is booked on corporate CC), but FF miles stay with employees as a perk.
Corporate rebates exist and companies list their preferred airline, but in most cases price difference trumps preferred airline.
I agree with you in two things. First of all 99% or any exact figure is not justified here because I just don't know. It's meant to illustrate my opinion that what I'm talking about is majority. Also, I would probably agree with you that in the world of “big business” (and by this I mean your Wall Street type companies and employees) this is not the case. I spent last 15+ years working as a field engineer for 6 different companies, all very big players in utilities services sector, 3 based in Europe, 2 in States, most with 100K+ employees). So, what I shared is based on this fact, the experience of my wife who worked for 2 out of 4 major Canadian banks and what I heard from people like me in planes, airports, lounges etc. So yes, there is a portion of business flying public that has the option to make timing, safety etc. as a #1 factor (directors, VPs etc.) but for us regular folks, workers, engineers, salesman those days seem to be long gone.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to dispute your claims but my opinion is that when you combine what I said above with the fact that leisure travelers are very much price sensitive (even you agree on this), you end up with a sizable number of people. Might not be 99% but it’s a certainly a sizable amount.
Also, as I said in my original post, I’ve seen these changes first hand. When I first started in one of these companies, we had in house travel consultants who would book everything for us. Every flight over 4 hours was business class, couple of hundred $ difference wasn’t even a thought. Then came Sep 11 and the crisis, first wave of outsourcing, lot stricter rules. After the crisis of 2008 was even worse. It might be different in the US but this is what I am seeing and experiencing in Canada (though I spend most of my time working in US and internationally so this is probably not a factor)