The Greater Toronto Airports Authority (GTAA), which manages Toronto’s Pearson Airport, has told EX-YU Aviation News it is still working on establishing flights to Belgrade. It comes after Serbian authorities said Air Serbia was in advance talks with Miami Airport to become its next destination in North America. “Serbia continues to be a target for Toronto Pearson to expand our global reach, and we are working closely with new and existing partners on how we can better serve both Serbia and Canada”, the GTAA said. Air Serbia had previously inquired over the airport’s terms and conditions for the potential introduction of flights. Nonstop services between Belgrade and Toronto were last operated in 1992.
Air Serbia previously said it was in the process of evaluating both Toronto and Miami as its third destination in North America. The airline had noted that Toronto has strong demand in the summer but is very seasonal in nature. Despite this, it said the Canadian city is on its “priority list”. The Serbian carrier introduced services to Chicago last May, complementing operations to New York. The airline’s primary goal in the development of its long haul network remains the addition of flights to Shanghai and Guangzhou, expected later this year. “In May 2018, Canada and Serbia signed an Air Transport Agreement as part of the ongoing process of acquiring the necessary permits to allow direct Air Serbia flights between Belgrade and Toronto. The Embassy of Canada has supported the Serbian national air carrier’s efforts in receiving these permits, but the decision on further developments is with Air Serbia”, the Canadian Embassy in Belgrade said.
Commenting on potential Toronto flights, Air Serbia’s CEO, Jiri Marek, previously said, “Our main strategy is to target cities that have year-round potential. We do not want to increase seasonality, which is already high in our region. That's one of the reasons we favour Chicago over Toronto, for example, because the Canadian city is not only extremely seasonal, but also extremely unidirectional. At the beginning of the season the flights are full in one direction, and at the end of the season in the other direction”. More recently, Mr Marek noted, “There is always competition if the next destination [in North America] will be Toronto or Miami. Toronto has a large diaspora, but also high seasonality. Miami, on the other hand, is a year-round destination. Our partner, American Airlines, has a large hub at Miami Airport. Both destinations are similar in terms of profitability, but we have not made a final decision yet”.
At the end of the day, 5th A330 will come next year and they'll get paid to fly to Toronto.
ReplyDeletePaid by who?
DeleteBy happy taxpayers.
DeleteEven if the route is loss-making, improving your nation's connectivity to other continents is more important than a few dollars
DeleteSeriously this tax payer discussion needs to end. Everywhere in the world there are government subsidies - in some cases far greater than what JU is getting. If it was not worth it for regional connectivity, why would they do it? Status and prestige is not an excuse anymore either. Clearly Serbia is offering something to the travelling public that they want. Tax payers should be happy it doesn’t cost them as much as JAT did with the losses they were making from a handful of routes and rotations.
DeleteInteresting policy proposition, Anon 09:28. Let's spend the money collected by taxing the domicile population in order to subsidize the connectivity for those who do not pay their taxes in Serbia and are in average better off than those whose tax money should be spent.
DeleteAs a matter of principle, for a subsidy to be meaningful and fair, it must present some substantial advantage for the substantial part of the domicile population, or a specific vulnerable part of the domicile population. I'm struggling to see the case for that in the context of Toronto flights (as well as for any other flights currently subsidized by the Serbian government, for that matter).
Flights that are subsidized by the Serbian government are PSO flights from Nis and Kraljevo which are used by the Serbian population. It enables affordable fares for travel both to Belgrade and other cities in Europe.
Delete@Anon 11:09, indeed, and for me these PSO flights do not qualify to be meaningful and fair spending of public money, as they do not present the substantial advantage for the substantial part of the domicile population, or a vulnerable part of the domicile population. They provide substantial advantage for a small section of the domicile population that is, generally, the least vulnerable. Therefore, it's the waste of public money, as much as a subsidy to Toronto would be.
DeleteI don't think you said domicile enough...
DeleteMiserable "tax guy" should just know that JU has payed millions into his country budget and employ a few thousands of jobs. Also many project in the country are getting financing from JU payed tax. Do not listen to those unhappy people on here.
DeleteIn a substantially substantial kind of way, I beg to substantially differ.
DeleteTax guys fail to understand that tax money is not only collected from the domicile population, but even more from the companies. As tax payers even way bigger than population, they have interests to have connections with some regions. For example, if Chinese invented in Bor and Smederevo, and they are some of the biggest exporters and definitely some of the biggest tax payers, it's their legitimate interest to have flights to China even though domicile population does not use those flights a lot. Same logic goes to any flights including PSOs.
Delete@Meyraf
Deleteremember that JFK route was loss making for 5 years for JU before making a profit and now its very important.
sometimes all businesses not just airlines like JU need to put up money before it turns a profit. thats exactly what tax subsidised routes are, they are an investment that will hopefull make a return. if there is year round direct flights to toronto maybe this will help to reduce seasonality by encouraging trade and business.
@Slav.Man, I agree that some (probably all) routes are loss making before they start returning profit. However, I do not agree that the subsidy equals investment. These are two very different things.
DeleteYou make an investment (even with the public money) when there's an expectation that, at one point, the investment will start returning (quantifiable) profit, based on a business plan. Without it, investment equals gamble.
On the other hand, subsidy is paying for an activity that you never expect to start returning the profit, but it creates some public good that outweighs the cost. For example, you have a remote island, and you want to keep people living on that island, but you have to enable them reach hospitals, or government administration, or their kids go to universities and be able to visit parents during holidays, and maybe even return there and work as doctors, vets, architects... Then your public interest for protecting a vulnerable group (domicile population, here you go!) justifies spending public money.
Under a slightly modified pretext, I'd also have understanding for PSO for Kraljevo or Nis. There, there's no vulnerable group to protect (people flying to visit their gasto relatives), but there is public good - aeronautical infrastructure (airport, ATC, MET, many related businesses) who are not economically viable (cannot survive if only economic criteria are applied), but losing them would cause significant damage that could be felt on the broader population) - therefore, the justification for spending public money is again protecting the public good.
However, I don't see how any of that would apply to flights Belgrade-Toronto. Aeronautical system in Belgrade is potent and self-sustainable, flying between the two cities would not give any essential support to any vulnerable social group. If there is a viable business plan to invest (and anticipate profit), it's up to a company (Air Serbia) to decide, but is certainly not a matter of public interest, therefore, not a reason for a subsidy.
Why don't they pursue Canadian carriers if JU is not interested?
ReplyDeleteGood question.
DeleteWell they say " new and existing partners "
DeleteAir Canada already said that they were looking at BEG flights but that the frequencies under the air service agreement are unviable for them.
DeleteBcs there are 3 airlines in Canada. AC is technically the only option as WestJet is complete mess due to gouvermant corruption deal inside that company; they can only fly 787s from Calgary to Erope and they cancelled all new orders when comes to the wide body aircrafts. Transat is horrible and do not believe many Serbs would choose to fly on their aircrafts as they are extremely uncomfortable.
DeleteI think only Air Canada and Air Serbia are able to operate these flights as per the Air Service Agreement since each side nominated just one airline. So West Jet or Transat are not even an option.
DeleteWhere is that Air Canada nomination in the ASA published and is it publicly available online? Is there a link?
DeleteCan someone please explain why no foreign transatlantic airline wants to come to BEG and everything has to be done from Air Serbia ? Is it because it is seasonal at as private mist of them don't wanna lose miney in winter ?
ReplyDelete* most , *money
DeleteBecause the market is too small. Air Serbia has model which enables them not to rely on Serbian market only.
DeleteWell, BEG is number 65 busiest airport in Europe. They simply won't give it priority over other top 64 airports.
DeleteGranted, of those 64, a lot are fueled by domestic flights and high seasonality, which just isn't there in Serbia.
DeleteWhilst I am not always sure the full benefits of the airline alliances being part of one could aid this
DeleteAlliance would be very useful for TATL operations.
DeleteAbout the only thing it would be useful at this point of the airline's development.
DeleteI somehow doubt JU will let another airline take this route.
ReplyDeleteWhy not serve YYZ as a summer seasonal route?
ReplyDeleteAgree. The perfect solution would be Toronto summer season, Miami winter seasonal.
Deletei also agree, but the question is how they do it. could they do it with the four they will have or could they do it with a wet lease vamos aircraft.
DeleteWell, there used to be a carrier that flew B757 some years ago, what was its name?
ReplyDeleteSkyservice. But t was via Dublin on a B757.
DeleteIt was a technical stop right? They didn't have traffic rights for DUB-BEG-DUB?
DeleteYeah. But that was only a technical stop, right?
DeleteYes, just a technical stop. No traffic rights between Dublin and Belgrade. Passengers didn't get off the plane.
DeleteThat must have been an interesting ride :D How many years did it operate for?
DeleteIt will happen sooner or later
ReplyDeleteHave a feeling Guangzhou, Shanghai and Miami will be launched this year, Toronto maybe in 2025.
DeleteI got that same feeling.
DeleteToronto has huge ex-yu and Balkan diaspora. I hope Air Serbia sees the potential in these flights.
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
DeleteThe diaspora is only useful if they are willing to pay premium $$$ for nonstop service. Look at the JFK prices in the middle of summer -- they are $2K R/T easily. The first question is whether YYZ has the population to support those kinds of prices in the summer. The second question is, of course, what do you do with this aircraft when November and February come and who is going to pay for the time that the aircraft is parked.
DeleteNo need to park. I am sure that direct leisure charters may occur 1 pw Maldives, Cuba, Dominican R., Thailand, Zanzibar, Seychelles etc...
DeleteAlso, they may be used on frequent lines like Moscow, Zurich, Barcelona, Paris
Air Transat should operate these flights seasonally.
ReplyDeleteAgree
DeleteI don't think it can based on the Air Service Agreement.
DeleteIf Air Serbia were to eventually launch these flights, a codeshare with Air Canada would be very beneficial and would guarantee more passengers.
ReplyDeleteI think they actually ended their interline.
DeleteAir Canada codeshares with Lufthansa to Belgrade.
DeleteJU interline with WestJet already.
DeleteThis route would be good for cargo too.
ReplyDeleteIs there much cargo between Serbia and Canada?
Delete@09:56
DeleteMaybe no but could be generated soon after you actualy start flying.
You would be surprised. JU's JFK flight has cargo from Canada
DeleteIt would be fantastic to be linked with Canada in addition to USA.
ReplyDeleteAre there flights from Toronto to any country in the region other than Croatia? And I don't mean ex-Yu region I mean wider region. Thanks
ReplyDeleteAir Canada flies to Athens from both Toronto and Montreal and Air Canada Rouge planned Bucharest with their B767 but Covid happened and the service was cancelled if I remember correctly
DeleteAir Transat also flies to ATH from YYZ and YUL.
DeleteBut should be noted both are seasonal
DeleteSo if ATH with a larger diaspora and an immensely higher tourist capacity cannot sustain year-round flights I highly doubt BEG will be getting them - season at best.
DeleteAnd Venice
DeleteAir Canada flies now to ATH year around
DeleteIt dosen't. They will extend the season by a month until the end of November since they are using a new subsidy by Athens airport to encourage seasonal long haul flights to operate in winter but there are no flights from December until March 2025.
DeleteDid BUD lose all TATL flights?
DeleteATH flights will be year round from 2024/25
DeleteBetter to focus on US network.
ReplyDeleteI would prioritize Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Miami and then launch Toronto, in that order.
ReplyDeleteAgree!
DeleteToronto makes sense seasonally only, at least in the beginning
ReplyDeleteIf a Canadian airline launches flights it will be seasonal for sure
DeleteI'm surprised how JU does not seem to want to fly any long haul route seasonally. Only year round.
DeleteNooo. The YYZ fans were finally slowly dying out and now this will give them fuel to go on :D
ReplyDeleteTrue :D
DeleteMaybe a different airport in Canada will have cheaper fees, like YWG! Lots of Polish, Indian and Ukrainian transfer passengers!
DeleteBro, if YYZ is a maybe, how on bloody earth do you think Winterpeg would work???
DeletePositive news. How likely is route announcement this year?
ReplyDeleteDoubtful for this year. It is obvious they will launch Miami ahead of Toronto
DeleteWhen could Toronto or Miami be added to the network? This winter or summer 2025?
ReplyDeleteMiami could start this winter. Toronto, if it ever starts, not before summer.
DeleteI believe Toronto will happen because that's next logical phase of Air Serbia expansion in North America.Focus should be on how to monetize cargo hold of A-330-200 on those flights between Toronto and Belgrade.Bear in mind dailly flights throghout the year from Toronto to Belgrade are out question if you ask me.One flight per week of 7 days is too low as well.Now,according to you,my dear reader of this post how many flights per week is ideal to you between these two cities knowing excessive Toronto airport fees in order to optimize AS flights between Toronto and Belgrade.If you ask me focus should be how to monetize cargo hold and definitely they better start looking for more available A-330-200 with RR engines on the market gor tge fiture expansion.
DeleteNext phase is Miami
DeleteSerbia said couple of weeks ago they are looking for Seoul South Korea as the next destination after Miami. With prolonged delays in getting 3rd and 4th A330 and uncertainity over possible 5th A330 needed for further expansion, Air Serbia leaves the door open for airlines from Canada to start Belgrade.
Deletegor tge fiture. Agree.
DeleteFirst A330:
Delete2pw Tijanjin
2pw Shaghai
2pw Guangzhou
Second A330:
5-7pw New York
Third A330:
2-4pw Chicago
2-3pw Miami
Fourth A330:
1-3pw Toronto
1-3pw New York
Seoul or Tokyo are not realistic, since Serbians need visa and no known diaspora there. Maybe 1-2pw New Delhi may be more reasonable. In the winter, JU could finally start some leisure charters
There are no visas for Serbian passport holders for either South Korea or Japan.
DeleteAnon@15:55 fully agree.
DeleteRead articles about Air Serbia A330 plans published here in the past couple of months to understand why that schedule is not realistic.
DeleteIn that articles is said that Miami is not in plans with third and fourth A330, but now we see that is more than likely. Same I expect to happen with Toronto, if every brick layup correctly
DeleteDoes anyone from Europe link North American cities? If they are worried about Toronto solo potential, would Toronto/LA be viable?
ReplyDeleteToronto/LA can only be viable if they get fifth freedom rights, which they will get approximately never
DeletePeople tend to forget Canada is one of the most protective and monopolistic aviation markets in the world.
DeleteToronto airport is always looking for new airlines and destinations , its not just Air serbia , thats normal , big hubs like them are always in game to bring someone new on the market.
ReplyDeleteHow about creating a triangular route? Just look at how many triangles are operated by TK...all over the world. They might combine YYZ and another city in USA or CA. Same with Canadian carriers. They might combine BEG with another high-potential city
ReplyDeleteBEG-YYZ-YUL could work.
Delete100%
DeleteWould it be competitive though?
DeleteMa da.
DeleteBest would be for Air Serbia to codeshare on flights from JFK to YYZ. I don't fully understand the logistics behind this though.
ReplyDeleteNot gonna happen. Miami is next.
ReplyDeleteHow can AirSerbia will get themselves in for the profitable routes in/out Canada? They might try YUL via YYZ stop but they never be able to do YYZ LAX or JFK YYZ.
ReplyDeleteIt's time to put more focus on intra-European flying. That is what Serbs need. Serbs from Canada (unlike those in the US) will switch to Lufthansa if it is cheaper by €5.
ReplyDeleteIt was reported that Serbian industrial activity rose by 7% in January meaning the economy is doing really well. This gives us all hope that this summer charter season will be a strong one.
^^^^ You have to be living in LA la world. Look up drink and dinner prices in EU transit airports. $5 gets ya a single Coke drink. Wake up.
DeleteI am awake but you are sleeping and dreaming of some unrealistic potential at YYZ. Canada is over as a prosperous country and it's all downhill from here. They just proposed a new law that will land you in jail for life if you say something offensive.
DeleteJU should rather focus on markets that have a lot more potential, ok?
Belgrade-Toronto-Chicago
ReplyDeleteBelgrade-Toronto-Los Angeles
Belgrade-Toronto-New York
Belgrade-Toronto-Vancouver
Belgrade-Toronto-San Francisco
?
Btw, nobody ever mentions Johannesburg. I live partially in SA and there are quite the number of "Balkanese" ;-) here: especially a lot of Greeks (OA even used to fly to JNB), but also Serbs, Bulgarians, Croats, etc. Maybe even useful for connecting traffic further up north: connections from AMS/FRA/MUC/LHR etc. The North Europeans go in masses to SA nowadays and fares are quite high. Perhaps a bit more original than to be yet another airline in JFK, ORD, PEK or PVG. Could JNB work?
ReplyDelete